Bible Curiosities

Biblical curiosities

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This is a list of Bible passages that are interesting for reasons that do not bear on religion or theology. All quotations from the Authorized Version (King James Version) of the Bible unless otherwise noted.
Contents
[hide]

* 1 Old Testament
* 2 Potential Answers
* 3 New Testament
* 4 See also
* 5 References

[edit] 1 Old Testament

Leviticus 16:8

...place lots upon the 2 goats, one marked for the Lord and the other marked for Azazel

This verse is the origin of the phrase scapegoat. Azazel's identity is a curiosity in itself.

2 Samuel 8:1

After this David attacked the Philistines and conquered them, wresting the [methegammah] from the Philistines

Part of the problem with translating ancient texts is the presence of idioms that were understood at the time but are not now. Consequently some translations just guess a suitable phrase. In the example above, the Hebrew word methegammah literally translates as bridle of the cubit, the alternative translations being bridle of Ammah, and Metheg and her mother. Most English versions, however, render methegammah as chief cities.

2 Samuel 23:24

Asahel, brother of Joab. Among the Thirty were: Elhanan, son of Dodo, from Bethlehem

The previous verse is unconnected to this one, leading to suspicions that there is a chunk of text missing between the words Joab and Among.

2 Samuel 23:24-39

Asahel the brother of Joab was one of the thirty; Elhanan the son of Dodo of Bethlehem,/ Shammah the Harodite, Elika the Harodite,/ Helez the Paltite, Ira the son of Ikkesh the Tekoite,/ Abiezer the Anethothite, Mebunnai the Hushathite,/ Zalmon the Ahohite, Maharai the Netophathite,/ Heleb the son of Baanah, a Netophathite, Ittai the son of Ribai out of Gibeah of the children of Benjamin,/ Benaiah the Pirathonite, Hiddai of the brooks of Gaash,/ Abialbon the Arbathite, Azmaveth the Barhumite,/ Eliahba the Shaalbonite, of the sons of Jashen, Jonathan,/ Shammah the Hararite, Ahiam the son of Sharar the Hararite,/ Eliphelet the son of Ahasbai, the son of the Maachathite, Eliam the son of Ahithophel the Gilonite,/ Hezrai the Carmelite, Paarai the Arbite,/ Igal the son of Nathan of Zobah, Bani the Gadite,/ Zelek the Ammonite, Nahari the Beerothite, armourbearer to Joab the son of Zeruiah,/ Ira an Ithrite, Gareb an Ithrite,/ Uriah the Hittite: thirty and seven in all.

The apparent discrepancy between the phrase "the thirty," the list of thirty names (Asahel, Elhanan, Shammah, Elika, Helez, Ira, Abiezer, Mebunnai, Zalmon, Maharai, Heleb, Ittai, Benaiah, Hiddai, Abialbon, Azmaveth, Eliahba, Shammah, Ahiam, Eliphelet, Eliam, Hezrai, Paarai, Igal, Bani, Zelek, Nahari, Ira, Gareb, and Uriah), and the concluding phrase "thirty and seven in all" is puzzling.


1 Kings 7:23

And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

This is the famous passage that implies that pi = 3, if taken literally, and if round is taken to mean circular, and if the measurements are taken to be precise, and if the diameter was measured across the outside of the brim.[1].

1 Kings 13:27

And he spake to his sons, saying, Saddle me the ass. And they saddled him.

The King James translators highlighted words added by the translators which did not correspond literally to any specific words in the original texts. Occasionally this produced an unintentionally comic effect, as with the word him in this example.

2 Kings 19 and Isaiah 37: these entire chapters are almost but not quite word-for-word identical.

1 Chronicles 1:25

Eber, Peleg, Reu,

Shortest verse in the Old Testament. (The numbering of verses is a Medieval innovation, and thus there is nothing intrinsically notable about these three words.)

Isaiah 34:14

The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; Lilith / the Screech Owl] also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest

This verse is notable both for its mention of creatures of Greek mythology - the satyr, but also of Jewish mysticism - Lilith (which the King James Version translates as Screech Owl).

Ezekiel 23:20

For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses

This reference to penis size, and semen, is perhaps one of the crudest parts of the entire bible.

Job 3:2

And Job spake, and said,

In the NIV, this is translated as He said:, thus making it the shortest verse in the NIV Bible.

Job 9:9

Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, and the chambers of the south.

Job 26:13

By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Job 38:31-32

Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

Isaiah 13:10

For the stars of the sky and Orion shall not let their light shine; the sun shall be dark when it rises, and the moon not shed her light.

Amos 5:8

It is he who made the Pleiades and Orion, who turns the dusk to dawn and day to darkest night.

Only places in the Hebrew Bible where a star (Arcturus), constellation (Orion), or asterism (the Pleiades) are mentioned by name. (In the New Testament, Acts 28:11 mentions the Dioskouroi, i.e. Castor and Pollux).

Job 39:9

Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?...

A mistranslation of the Hebrew word ראמ "wild ox".

Psalm 46:3

Though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof. Selah.

Psalm 46:9

He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariot in the fire.

As sometimes presented: the forty-sixth word in the psalm is "shake" (in verse 3 above). If we decide, for some reason, not to count the "selah" at the end, the forty-sixth word from the end (in verse 9 above) is "spear." William Shakespeare was baptized in 1564, and could arguably have been 46 years old when the King James version was published in 1611, or when the translation was completed. Therefore: William Shakespeare was secretly one of the King James translators. See http://www.baconlinks.com/VVILL/Psalm46.html

Psalm 119

Psalm 119 is an acrostic poem in the Hebrew alphabet; each section begins with a new letter.

Proverbs 16:18

Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Correct wording of the verse very frequently misquoted as "Pride goeth before a fall."

[edit] 2 Potential Answers

2 Samuel 23:24-39

At first glance there would seem to be 31 people listed from 2 Sam. 23:24-39. However, two are previously said to be above the 30 lesser referred to in v. 23, and are already named earlier in the chapter. Their names are Shammah son of Agee the Hararite (v. 11, 25) and Benaiah the Pirathonite (v. 20, 30). Note that even though Benaiah is listed among the 31, in verse 23 he is specifically said to be "more honourable then the thirty", clearly showing he was not a part of the 30.

Closer inspection also shows v. 34 has an extra member, called only "the son of the Maachathite". Note that this is the one part of the list where a member is left unnamed, and a family/city reference is given without a first name surrounding it. This unnamed man may be "Hepher the Mecherathite" of 1 Chr. 11:34.

The army's structure includes 30 lower-ranked captains (2 Sam. 13,23), of whom 3 by a valiant deed became elevated above the 30 (1 Chr. 11:15-21, 2 Sam. 23:13-19). These 3 were Abishai and apparently his brother Joab, as well as Benaiah [prev. mentioned]. Joab, while not explicitly said to be the 3rd person doing the deed, is said in 1 Chr. 11:6 to have been set apparently as 2nd in command to David. Since it should then be assumed he'd be one of the 37 in 2 Sam. ch. 23, it is logical to believe he was the unnamed 3rd mentioned and apparently not intended to be listed merely as a relative in 2 Sam. 23:18. Due to Joab's incredible fame (125 verses in the Bible reference him, if that's any indication) the human writer may have thought it went without saying, so to speak, that Joab was responsible for such exploits.

Then above all 33 are said to be 3 "mighties" [1 Chr. 11:12] as listed in 2 Sam. 23:8-11 and 1 Chr. 11:10-14. They were Adino the Eznite the Tachmonite (apparently Jashobeam the Hachmonite of 1 Chr. 11:11), Eleazar the son of Dodo the Ahohite, and Shammah the Son of Agee the Hararite [prev. mentioned]. Thus, all warriors listed so far from 2 Sam. 23 total 36. 3 "mighties" [verses 10-14], 3 slightly lesser mighty men [verses 15-25](save Joab, who might be said to skip a rank due to another deed he did), and 30 captains to rule the entire army [verses 26-39].

The final piece in the puzzle is that David who of course is listed all throughout the chapter, especially the beginning, could well be counted the 37th. Verse 39 concludes only "thirty and seven in all" without saying something such as "mighty men of David" and thus excluding him from the count. Thus, there are indeed 37 all in all as v. 39 says, 30 captains as v. 23 says, and as a comparison of verses 19 and 23 shows, there are then 2 more groups of 3 mighty warriors each. David (or perhaps Joab, if Joab was not the 3rd warrior in the 2nd rank of 3, and someone else yet unknown was) are apparently the only 2 choices available to be the 37th man.

1 Kings 7:23

This link to Creation On The Web provides some feasible explanations for the seeming mathematical inaccuracy of the Bible. Basically they point out cubits were measured through forearm lengths and when you are using body parts for measuring, you are going to do some rounding, as it's hard to be exact unless you want to end the measurements with your toenails. They also point out other verses about the structure's makeup, which could affect the distance when taken directly across the object's surface.

[edit] 3 New Testament

John 11:35

Jesus wept.

Shortest verse in the New Testament and shortest verse in the KJV Bible. (The numbering of verses is a Medieval innovation, and thus there is nothing intrinsically notable about these two words; however, see Dominus Flevit Church.) In the NIV translation, the shortest verse is actually Job 3:2, see above.

Titus 1:12,13a

One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true.

This is an allusion to a verse attributed to the Cretan philosopher Epimenides. It has later been summarized as the Epimenides paradox: The Cretans are always liars. Logicians of the 19th century started to consider the truth or falseness in a liar talking about his truthfulness. It seems that neither Epimenides nor the author of the letter (presented as Paul of Tarsus) intended to issue a paradox.

[edit] 4 See also

* Chapters and verses of the Bible
* List of omitted Bible verses

[edit] 5 References

1. ^ For a discussion of this point, see Pi: What if the best isn't good enough?. Abarim Publications' Bible Commentary. Retrieved on 2006-10-20.

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Talk:Biblical curiosities

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[edit] Notable Pagan References/Condemnations

I couldn't help noticing one of the verses quoted concerns Satyrs and Lilith. I want to check on here before I attempt posting, but would it be a good idea for me to add some other notable verses relating to pagan rituals?

Apparent references to something very similar to Christmas trees, and God's condemnation of them as idols:

Jeremiah 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at
the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work
of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it
move not.
5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

Jzyehoshua (talk • contribs) 07:40, 20 February 2007 (UTC).

I doubt that it looked like a Christmas tree. More likely the wood was carved into the shape of an idol, and then covered with a thin layer of gold, to make it look like a solid gold idol. --68.101.79.42 (talk) 07:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

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Talk Page Archive 1

Talk:Biblical curiosities/Archive 1

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< Talk:Biblical curiosities
Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Psalm 46:3

Though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof. Selah.

Psalm 46:9

He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariot in the fire.

As sometimes presented: the forty-sixth word in the psalm is "shake" (in verse 3 above). If we decide, for some reason, not to count the "selah" at the end, the forty-sixth word from the end (in verse 9 above) is "spear." William Shakespeare was baptized in 1564, and could arguably have been 46 years old when the King James version was published in 1611, or when the translation was completed. Therefore: William Shakespeare was secretly one of the King James translators.

Isn't there a page for biblical numerology or something where this could go? Mark Richards 19:51, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

You may be thinking of Gematria, but I don't think it really fits there. Dpbsmith 21:01, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

1 From VfD

* And this is encyclopediac? It is a person's/bunch of people's interpretations of certain selections of the Bible, that I can see... if this is encyclopediac, then why not quote the entire Bible verbatim on wikipedia... or if you really want a controversy, we could have an article highlighting everywhere homosexuality is discussed and condemned. -Chris July 14, 2007
* I think this is a bit hopeless. There is one who refers stars by name - intersting - but others are: shortest verse in the new testament and the likes. Muriel 13:25, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
* Could some of it be useful in making an encyclopedia. I guess. Neutral. Anthony DiPierro 13:32, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
* I think it is quite interesting. I agree that shortest verse isn't that fascinating for me, but it may be for someone else. The bit about pi=3 though should be in an encylopedia. theresa knott 14:01, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
* Keep. very interesting and very encyclopaedic. Optim 14:18, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
* No vote - I found them interesting but it isn't yet an article. - Texture 14:35, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
* Agree with Texture. By the way, is "list" an appropriate title for this kind of article? I'm under the impression that "list" should only be used for lists where the entries are links. Fredrik 14:41, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
* Maybe the interested parts could give the article a better look. I like the concept, i just think the listed items of no particular interest. Muriel 14:46, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
* Keep. Biblical superlatives are encyclopedic. - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 16:47, Mar 4, 2004 (UTC)
* Keep. Everyking 17:48, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
* Keep; interesting. Kwertii 19:34, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
* Keep; interesting, has the potential to become much more (if linked from the appropriate places). Catherine 19:55, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
* Something. This page shouldn't be kept in it's current unencyclopedic form. If it was refactored and broken into seperate articles some of the material could be kept. However some of the statement are only true for specific translations of the bible and thus are rather meaningless. --Imran 23:39, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
* Keep. Could at least be useful when writing other articles. --Seth Mahoney 19:31, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)
* Keep. But it should lose the "List of", since it's not just a list. -Sean 06:31, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)
* Keep. Can't see a reason not to. -- Matty j 05:41, Mar 9, 2004 (UTC)
* Keep. It's no less useful than when it was on lists for deletion and was kept. Jamesday 23:53, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The "and when they rose in the morning, they were all dead corpses" doesn't merit inclusion here. It's not really famous or notable for anything and seems to be added here only due to someone's misunderstanding of the language in the King James Version of the Bible. "They" could refer to the people inside the besieged city, or to the remaining soldiers in the camp. "they were all dead corpses" might be rendered as "there were all dead corpses" in a less archaic mode of writing. silsor 06:37, Mar 7, 2004 (UTC)

2 The Thirty (-seven)

I don't understand. The KJV text is:

10:023:024 Asahel the brother of Joab was one of the thirty; Elhanan the son of Dodo of Bethlehem,

10:023:025 Shammah the Harodite, Elika the Harodite,

10:023:026 Helez the Paltite, Ira the son of Ikkesh the Tekoite,

10:023:027 Abiezer the Anethothite, Mebunnai the Hushathite,

10:023:028 Zalmon the Ahohite, Maharai the Netophathite,

10:023:029 Heleb the son of Baanah, a Netophathite, Ittai the son of Ribai out of Gibeah of the children of Benjamin,

10:023:030 Benaiah the Pirathonite, Hiddai of the brooks of Gaash,

10:023:031 Abialbon the Arbathite, Azmaveth the Barhumite,

10:023:032 Eliahba the Shaalbonite, of the sons of Jashen, Jonathan,

10:023:033 Shammah the Hararite, Ahiam the son of Sharar the Hararite,

10:023:034 Eliphelet the son of Ahasbai, the son of the Maachathite, Eliam the son of Ahithophel the Gilonite,

10:023:035 Hezrai the Carmelite, Paarai the Arbite,

10:023:036 Igal the son of Nathan of Zobah, Bani the Gadite,

10:023:037 Zelek the Ammonite, Nahari the Beerothite, armourbearer to Joab the son of Zeruiah,

10:023:038 Ira an Ithrite, Gareb an Ithrite,

10:023:039 Uriah the Hittite: thirty and seven in all.

This passage opens "Asahel the brother of Joab was one of the thirty" and lists thirty names by my count, then closes with "thirty and seven in all."

Which translation is being quoted in the article? Do other translations list thirty-seven names?

It's puzzling either way, but how many names are actually listed? Dpbsmith (talk) 14:15, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I've put in the full KJV text, and changed the comment simple statement noting the apparent discrepancy, and, OK, opining that it is puzzling. Dpbsmith (talk) 14:28, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm snipping the comment

One probable explanation is that when one of the Thirty died, someone else would be recognized to replace them. Thus, at the time of the writing, there were probably 30 living, with seven who might have died (in battle, or for natural causes).[citation needed]

because, as written, it appears to be personal speculation. If someone has a reliable published source for this explanation, they should put it back in, sourced. Dpbsmith (talk) 14:28, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


3 The 37:

I was reading the chapter and noticed there are 36 names given in all:


2 Samuel 23:8 These be the names of the mighty men whom David had: The Tachmonite that sat in
the seat, chief among the captains; the same was Adino the Eznite: he lift up his spear
against eight hundred, whom he slew at one time.
9 And after him was Eleazar the son of Dodo the Ahohite, one of the three mighty men
with David, when they defied the Philistines that were there gathered together to battle, and
the men of Israel were gone away:
10 He arose, and smote the Philistines until his hand was weary, and his hand clave unto the
sword: and the LORD wrought a great victory that day; and the people returned after him only
to spoil.
11 And after him was Shammah the son of Agee the Hararite. And the Philistines were
gathered together into a troop, where was a piece of ground full of lentiles: and the people
fled from the Philistines.
12 But he stood in the midst of the ground, and defended it, and slew the Philistines: and the
LORD wrought a great victory.
13 And three of the thirty chief went down, and came to David in the harvest time unto the
cave of Adullam: and the troop of the Philistines pitched in the valley of Rephaim.
14 And David was then in an hold, and the garrison of the Philistines was then in Bethlehem.
15 And David longed, and said, Oh that one would give me drink of the water of the well of
Bethlehem, which is by the gate!
16 And the three mighty men brake through the host of the Philistines, and drew water out of
the well of Bethlehem, that was by the gate, and took it, and brought it to David:
nevertheless he would not drink thereof, but poured it out unto the LORD.
17 And he said, Be it far from me, O LORD, that I should do this: is not this the blood of the
men that went in jeopardy of their lives? therefore he would not drink it. These things did
these three mighty men.
18 And Abishai, the brother of Joab, the son of Zeruiah, was chief among three. And he
lifted up his spear against three hundred, and slew them, and had the name among three.
19 Was he not most honourable of three? therefore he was their captain: howbeit he attained
not unto the first three.
20 And Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, the son of a valiant man, of Kabzeel, who had done
many acts, he slew two lionlike men of Moab: he went down also and slew a lion in the midst of
a pit in time of snow:
21 And he slew an Egyptian, a goodly man: and the Egyptian had a spear in his hand; but he
went down to him with a staff, and plucked the spear out of the Egyptian's hand, and slew him
with his own spear.
22 These things did Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, and had the name among three mighty men.
23 He was more honourable than the thirty, but he attained not to the first three. And David
set him over his guard.
24 Asahel the brother of Joab was one of the thirty; Elhanan the son of Dodo of
Bethlehem,
25 Shammah the Harodite, Elika the Harodite,
26 Helez the Paltite, Ira the son of Ikkesh the Tekoite,
27 Abiezer the Anethothite, Mebunnai the Hushathite,
28 Zalmon the Ahohite, Maharai the Netophathite,
29 Heleb the son of Baanah, a Netophathite, Ittai the son of Ribai out of Gibeah
of the children of Benjamin,
30 Benaiah the Pirathonite, Hiddai of the brooks of Gaash,
31 Abialbon the Arbathite, Azmaveth the Barhumite,
32 Eliahba the Shaalbonite, of the sons of Jashen, Jonathan,
33 Shammah the Hararite, Ahiam the son of Sharar the Hararite,
34 Eliphelet the son of Ahasbai, the son of the Maachathite, Eliam the son of
Ahithophel the Gilonite,
35 Hezrai the Carmelite, Paarai the Arbite,
36 Igal the son of Nathan of Zobah, Bani the Gadite,
37 Zelek the Ammonite, Naharai the Beerothite, armourbearer to Joab the son of
Zeruiah,
38 Ira an Ithrite, Gareb an Ithrite,
39 Uriah the Hittite: thirty and seven in all.


Though this may be a scribal error, I am not so sure. I suspect the 37 refers not to the "30" but rather to the "mighty men" described in v. 37. So though there are 30, we see continually a theme of apparently two groups of 3 outside these 30.

Eleazer is said to be one of the first three, and apparently behind Adino, with Shammah the last of the 3 (who is also in the list. But then it says this:


2 Samuel 23:13 And three of the thirty chief went down, and came to David in the harvest time
unto the cave of Adullam: and the troop of the Philistines pitched in the valley of Rephaim.

18 And Abishai, the brother of Joab, the son of Zeruiah, was chief among three. And he
lifted up his spear against three hundred, and slew them, and had the name among three.
19 Was he not most honourable of three? therefore he was their captain: howbeit he attained
not unto the first three.


That v. 19 is key. We see now there are 6 outside the original 30. The "three of the thirty chief" are now considered a specific 3 for their valiant deed, yet as not attaining to "the first three." So there are now 2 groups of 3 altogether, aside from the 30. The second group includes Abishai, Benaiah, and someone else not listed, perhaps Joab?

Where it gets confusing is now seeing some are listed more then once. Shammah and Benaiah both are since they were apparently originally of the 30, but then counted in this second group of 3.

So so far there are 2 groups of 3, one a new one that has men from the old group of 30 and one apparently who we don't know yet. So of the 31 at the bottom, add the first group of 3 for 34 so far. And if the yet unknown person of the 2nd group of 3 should not be in the list at the bottom, that still makes only 35... but it's closer to explaining things.

And honestly, I don't have a full answer yet, and am just figuring this out as I go.

I notice the list has similar names to that in 1 Chronicles 11 though so let's go there and see what that looks like.

Very interesting... the two accounts look identical almost, don't they?

I'm going to contrast them for differences... AHA! (this feels almost like a treasure hunt) :)


1 Chronicles 11:6 And David said, Whosoever smiteth the Jebusites first shall be chief and
captain. So Joab the son of Zeruiah went first up, and was chief.


We can see here Joab is the chief of one of the 2 groups of 3. That would make sense since he was mentioned in 2 Samuel 23, just seemingly as a relative rather then one of the number. Let's see, next is mentioned Jashobeam in v. 11, who we didn't see mentioned in the other passage at all.

In v. 15 we see the pattern again of a 2nd group of 3 created... OHHH... I just realized... Joab isn't one of EITHER of the 2 groups of 3... He's the head of them ALL... that makes sense since he's said to be commander in chief essentially to David elsewhere and is so heavily mentioned in the Bible. That means Jashobeam must be the last missing member of the 2 groups of 3, making for 7 in all outside the group of 30.

But since Shammah and Benaiah were mentioned in the 1st list of 31 from the original passage, they get subtracted from those 31, making only 29 to add to the 7, making 36. Some apparently were added to replace the absences in the 30 of those moving up the ranks to the 7, so maybe we'll be able to figure out more from the list.

In verses 20-22 we see Abishai and Benaiah repeated as 2 of the 7 once more, but now it seems Jashobeam is the 3rd in the group.

WOW....

I was just contrasting the 2 accounts, and I think HERE is the problem. But see for yourself, compare the 2 lists:

2 Samuel 23:24 Asahel the brother of Joab was one of the thirty; Elhanan the son
of Dodo of Bethlehem,
25 Shammah the Harodite, Elika the Harodite,
26 Helez the Paltite, Ira the son of Ikkesh the Tekoite,
27 Abiezer the Anethothite, Mebunnai the Hushathite,
28 Zalmon the Ahohite, Maharai the Netophathite,
29 Heleb the son of Baanah, a Netophathite, Ittai the son of Ribai out of Gibeah
of the children of Benjamin,
30 Benaiah the Pirathonite, Hiddai of the brooks of Gaash,
31 Abialbon the Arbathite, Azmaveth the Barhumite,
32 Eliahba the Shaalbonite, of the sons of Jashen, Jonathan,
33 Shammah the Hararite, Ahiam the son of Sharar the Hararite,
34 Eliphelet the son of Ahasbai, the son of the Maachathite, Eliam the son of
Ahithophel the Gilonite,
35 Hezrai the Carmelite, Paarai the Arbite,
36 Igal the son of Nathan of Zobah, Bani the Gadite,
37 Zelek the Ammonite, Naharai the Beerothite, armourbearer to Joab the son of
Zeruiah,
38 Ira an Ithrite, Gareb an Ithrite,
39 Uriah the Hittite: thirty and seven in all.

1 Chronicles 11:26 Also the valiant men of the armies were, Asahel the brother of Joab,
Elhanan the son of Dodo of Bethlehem,
27 Shammoth the Harorite, Helez the Pelonite,
28 Ira the son of Ikkesh the Tekoite, Abiezer the Antothite,
29 Sibbecai the Hushathite, Ilai the Ahohite,
30 Maharai the Netophathite, Heled the son of Baanah the Netophathite,
31 Ithai the son of Ribai of Gibeah, that pertained to the children of
Benjamin, Benaiah the Pirathonite,
32 Hurai of the brooks of Gaash, Abiel the Arbathite,
33 Azmaveth the Baharumite, Eliahba the Shaalbonite,
34 The sons of Hashem the Gizonite, Jonathan the son of Shage the Hararite,
35 Ahiam the son of Sacar the Hararite, Eliphal the son of Ur,
36 Hepher the Mecherathite, Ahijah the Pelonite,
37 Hezro the Carmelite, Naarai the son of Ezbai,
38 Joel the brother of Nathan, Mibhar the son of Haggeri,
39 Zelek the Ammonite, Naharai the Berothite, the armourbearer of Joab the son of
Zeruiah,
40 Ira the Ithrite, Gareb the Ithrite,
41 Uriah the Hittite, Zabad the son of Ahlai,
42 Adina the son of Shiza the Reubenite, a captain of the Reubenites, and thirty with
him,
43 Hanan the son of Maachah, and Joshaphat the Mithnite,
44 Uzzia the Ashterathite, Shama and Jehiel the sons of Hothan the Aroerite,
45 Jediael the son of Shimri, and Joha his brother, the Tizite,
46 Eliel the Mahavite, and Jeribai, and Joshaviah, the sons of Elnaam, and Ithmah the
Moabite,
47 Eliel, and Obed, and Jasiel the Mesobaite.

I'm beginning to think I might be out of my league trying to decipher all this... Umm...

The following names remain the same in both lists [if city is in parentheses it means the city/family names differ slightly in each list, if name then the names differ slightly]:

Asahel, Elhanan, Shammah (city, name), Helez the Paltite (city), Ira, Abiezer (city), Maharai, Heled (name), Ithai (name), Benaiah, Hurai (name), Abiel (name), Azmaveth (city), Eliahba, Jonathan (city), Ahiam (city), Eliphal (name, city), Hezro (name), Zelek, Naharai (city), Ira, Gareb, Uriah .

Now the trick is figuring out if any of the remaining ones are the same. Here's the verses again, but with the names/sections taken out where we've found matches, to narrow down who's left:

2 Samuel 23:25 Elika the Harodite,
34 Eliam the son of Ahithophel the Gilonite,
36 Igal the son of Nathan of Zobah, Bani the Gadite,

1 Chronicles 11:36 Ahijah the Pelonite,
38 Joel the brother of Nathan, Mibhar the son of Haggeri,
41 Zabad the son of Ahlai,
42 Adina the son of Shiza the Reubenite, a captain of the Reubenites, and thirty with
him,
43 Hanan the son of Maachah, and Joshaphat the Mithnite,
44 Uzzia the Ashterathite, Shama and Jehiel the sons of Hothan the Aroerite,
45 Jediael the son of Shimri, and Joha his brother, the Tizite,
46 Eliel the Mahavite, and Jeribai, and Joshaviah, the sons of Elnaam,
and Ithmah the Moabite,
47 Eliel, and Obed, and Jasiel the Mesobaite.

EDIT- I removed from the above list the following: Ilai/Zalmon (v. 28, 29, reason - same city name, early in list), Mebunna/Sibbecai (v. 27, 29, reason - same city name, early in list), "the son of the Maachathite"/Hepher (v. 34, 36, reason - similar city name, spot in list, apparently name just wasn't given in Samuel list), Paarai/Naarai (v. 35, 37, reason - very similar first names, similar city names, and same spot in lists)

Any ideas? Eliam (v. 34) might be the same as Eliel (v. 47) but without a city name it makes it harder to be sure. Elika (v. 25) might be the same as Ahijah (v. 36) but the names are close somewhat, but not so much the city names.

Either way, it looks like for whatever reason, there are another 15 in the Chronicles list then in the Samuel list, confusing things all the more. Many match up but it's like one list was compiled years afterward or something because of all the slight name changes.

Ohh... it says the Chronicles list is just one of the valiant men of the armies (v. 26), not necessarily whatever 37 grouping is the Samuel list. Interestingly, there are 45 listed in the bottom list for 1 Chronicles 11 and only 31 for the 2 Samuel list. I suppose though, knowing that Joab when mentioned in 2 Samuel 23:18 is to be counted among the 3 group makes 1 more, which I believe brings to 37 all known valiant men in 2 Samuel ch. 23... although that still doesn't explain where the Jashobeam guy from 1 Chronicles 11 fits in among the 2 groups of 3. Maybe he came in later?

Anyway, this is just my musings on the topic. Feel free to tell me what you think. Here's a final sorting of all charachters in 2 Samuel 23 [reminder, see v. 23 to note 2 groups of 3]:

"Chief and captain" of all, 2nd only to David [1 Chr. 11:6]: Joab (v. 18)

1st 3 "mighties" [see 1 Chr. 11:12 for name]: Adino (v. 8), Eleazar (v. 9), Shammah (v. 11)
2nd 3 : Abishai (v. 18), Benaiah (v. 23) [

Remaining

1-Asahel (v. 24)
2-Elhanan (v. 24)
3-Shammah (v. 25) [note-not to be confused with Shammah the Hararite of v. 11, 33, who has been
removed from list as he should be]
4-Elika (v. 25)
5-Helez the Paltite (v.26)
6-Ira (v. 26)
7-Abiezer (v. 27)
8-Mebunnai (v. 27)
9-Zalmon (v. 28)
10-Maharai (v. 28)
11-Heleb (v. 29)
12-Ittai (v. 29)
13-Hiddai (v. 30)
14-Abialbon (v. 31)
15-Azmaveth (v. 31)
16-Eliahba (v. 32)
17-Jonathan (v. 32)
18-Ahiam (v. 33)
19-Eliphelet (v. 34)
20-son of the Maachathite? (v. 34) [note the blank where a name should be, perhaps the human
writer did not know it? Perhaps Hepher of 1 Chr. 11:36]
21-Eliam (v. 34)
22-Hezrai (v. 35)
23-Paarai (v. 35)
24-Igal (v. 36)
25-Bani (v. 36)
26-Zelek (v. 37)
27-Naharai (v. 37)
28-Ira (v. 38)
29-Gareb (v. 38)
30-Uriah (v. 39)

Ultimately it does add up to 36 people, all told. The study of 1 Chr. 11 shone where the misreading was, v. 20 was overlooked since it didn't have a name until doing a thorough analysis it appeared a name should be there, apparently Hepher's. Also, Joab as one of the 2 groups of 3 shows up, and is now apparent his name does not appear accidentally as a relative in v. 18, but is to be included among all these.

Remaining questions to be asked: Since Jashobeam is revealed to be the missing member of the 7 key leaders and described as "the chief of the captains" in 1 Chr. 11:11, is he the missing 37th member? Could he be referred to somewhere in this chapter that we are not seeing?

AHA! I have it. By using cross-references, I found Jashobeam referenced in 1 Chronicles 27:2 (also another list of all charachters involved again). And from there, the reference points back to, where? 2 Samuel 23:8. Someone in there must be Jashobeam, but who?

2 Samuel 23:8 These be the names of the mighty men whom David had: The Tachmonite that sat in
the seat, chief among the captains; the same was Adino the Eznite: he lift up his spear
against eight hundred, whom he slew at one time.

It would seem from reading Adino and the Tachmonite are one in the same... but what if they're not? Jashobeam is called in 1 Chronicles 11:11, "Jashobeam, the HACHMONITE". Hmm... and yet... since Adino and Eznite are both words appearing only once in the Bible, I must honestly conclude Jashobeam is not a missing member here. Rather, him and Adino are one and the same, he is Jashobeam the H/Tachmonite, also known as Adino the Eznite.

So that solves the riddle above. Joab perhaps is the 6th member of the 2 groups of 3, rather then perhaps the leader of them all. Which would mean there is still one member missing somehow... oh. wait. umm. that can't be... could David count HIMSELF as one of the mighty men in 2 Samuel 23? Then that WOULD bring the total to 37... and since all 6 leadership positions of 2 groups of 3 would be filled, and the 30 member total of non-leaders... it wouldn't make him break into any of those and thus break that...

I wonder... could David himself be the 37th? The giant killer and one of the greatest warriors in the Bible, the Psalmist who fought even until he was practically on his deathbed? The old guy had to be told by his own people not to go out to war any more...

2 Samuel 21:15 Moreover the Philistines had yet war again with Israel; and David went down,
and his servants with him, and fought against the Philistines: and David waxed faint.
16 And Ishbibenob, which was of the sons of the giant, the weight of whose spear weighed three
hundred shekels of brass in weight, he being girded with a new sword, thought to have slain
David.
17 But Abishai the son of Zeruiah succoured him, and smote the Philistine, and killed him.
Then the men of David sware unto him, saying, Thou shalt go no more out with us to battle,
that thou quench not the light of Israel.

Could he be the 37th warrior? If so, the entire equation is over and done with. Every member would indeed be listed... no scribal errors, just very hard to figure out, that's all... interesting. In 2 Samuel 23:39 it says 37 in all, but not that the number excluded David, the leader of them all... it simply states the total... so David... could be the 37th.

--Jzyehoshua 06:48, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

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