Maximum reported B-17 & B-24 bomb loads

Maximum reported B-17 & B-24 bomb loads

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Maximum reported B-17 & B-24 bomb loads is a summary of compiled data from published mission reports of the US Air Forces in Europe during World War II of the heaviest bomb loads carried by the B-17 Flying Fortress and B-24 Liberator as well as the weight of bombs each carried to their most distant targets. The purpose is to tie information of the relative effectiveness of the two bombers to real data and actual practice.[1]
Contents
[hide]

* 1 B-17 design considerations
* 2 B-24 design considerations
* 3 Auxiliary bomb bay fuel tanks
* 4 Effect of Axis fighter opposition
* 5 Method
* 6 Boeing B-17 results
* 7 Consolidated B-24 results
* 8 Graphical comparison
* 9 References

[edit] 1 B-17 design considerations

The B-17 had the reputation of being the steadier platform, better for flying in formation. This was an advantage where tight box formations provided the 8th Air Force its best defense early in the war against German fighter planes. The plane carried 13 machine guns compared to the B-24’s ten, and it had a reputation of being very rugged. A greater weight of bombs could be carried (B-17G: 17,600 lb)[2] than was practicable.

[edit] 2 B-24 design considerations

The B-24 wing provided the same lift as the B-17's but with less drag so it went faster under the same power and therefore farther with the same amount of fuel. This advantage was accomplished using the airfoil developed by David R. Davis along with Fowler flaps which gave necessary lift upon landing without adding drag during normal flight. Another advantage was the flexibility provided by the B-24's two bomb bays, each the size of the B-17’s one.

[edit] 3 Auxiliary bomb bay fuel tanks

Both planes could gain more range by carrying auxiliary bomb bay fuel tanks, but the B-17 paid a heavier penalty on the number of bombs that could then be carried. It could carry a 410 US gal tank on either side of the bomb bay with bombs on the other side. Or it could carry two such tanks and no bombs. Auxiliary fuel tanks of approximately 400 U.S. gal (1,500 L) each could be carried on either side of the B-24's forward bomb bay leaving both sides of the aft bomb bay for bombs. Both designs were limited by their Maximum Takeoff Weight and any extra fuel carried was at the expense of the bomb load because fuel weighs about 6 lb/U.S. gal (0.7 kg/L). Tanks in the wings of late-model versions of both planes carried a total of about 2,800 U.S. gal (11,000 L) weighing about 17,000 lb (7,700 kg).

[edit] 4 Effect of Axis fighter opposition

The air defenses over the Continent were so effective that daylight raiders had to allocate much of an aircraft's weight-lifting capacity to defenses.

The empty weight of a B-24J includes 3,654 lb (1657 kg) for armament provisions.[3] This presumably would include offensive armament provisions such as bomb racks, bomb hoist, and shackles, and defensive provisions such as the turrets: nose, top, ball and tail. The weight of armament in the B-17 by 1945, including armor plate and glass plus the turrets, was 2,766 lb.[4] The weight breakdown for B-17Fs flying across the Atlantic in Operation Bolero included the following:[5] Machine guns: 11ea .50 cal (12.7 mm), totaling 869 lb (79 lb each). Ammunition: .50 cal, 2,200 rounds totaling 660 lb (4.8 oz or 0.3 lb per round). The recommended number of rounds to be taken on the second Schweinfurt mission, 1943-10-14, was 6,800 rounds[6] weighing approximately 2,040 lb (using the .3 lb per round from above). “Luscious Lady”, a B-17F, actually carried 14,000 rounds[7] weighing 4,200 lb (again using the .3 lb per round from above).

Consequently, the heavy defensive provisions against German fighter planes weighed approximately: turrets and armor (2,766 lb) + 11 machine guns (870 lb) + 6,800 rounds of ammunition (2,040 lb) + four gunners (700 lb) = 6,376 lb total.

In the China Burma India (CBI) theater, one RAF commander stripped his B-24’s of what he considered excess weight (including all centerline guns) and carried 8,000 lb bomb loads at night to Bangkok, a round trip of over 2,100 miles, and 12,000 lb to Rangoon, a round trip of over 1,400 miles.[8] (See chart on right below).

[edit] 5 Method

To find data for this comparison, crew members’ first-hand mission reports posted to the web, and accounts reported in books written about daylight bombing in Europe in World War II, were searched for greater-than-average bomb loads and extra long range targets. These data were sorted to find the heaviest loads carried and the most distant targets bombed.
B-17F Bombing Focke-Wulf Plant at Marienburg
B-17F Bombing Focke-Wulf Plant at Marienburg

[edit] 6 Boeing B-17 results

The heaviest bomb load carried by a B-17 was 8,000 lb and the farthest it was carried was to Nienburg, Germany.[9]. The largest bomb load carried to its most distant target, Marienburg (now Malbork, Poland), was 4,540 lb.[10] [11]. These exceptional missions anchor the two ends of the maximum bomb-load line for the B-17. All other bomb loads carried by B-17s over the continent of Europe would lie below and to the left of the line. The average B-17 bomb load dropped in World War II was between 4,000 lb and 5,000 lb.[12]

[edit] 7 Consolidated B-24 results
Sandman Over Ploesti
Sandman Over Ploesti

The heaviest bomb load carried by a B-24 was also 8,000 lb and the farthest it was carried was to Karlsruhe.[13] The largest bomb load carried to the most distant target, Ploieşti, Romania (flying from Benghazi) was 3,500 lb (Operation Tidal Wave).[14][15] These anchor the ends of the maximum bomb-load line for the B-24. All other bomb loads carried by B-24s in Europe lie below and to the left of that line. In the 8th Air Force, the normal tactical bomb load of the B-24 was 5,000 lb.[16]

[edit] 8 Graphical comparison

The chart on the right below presents, for comparison purposes, the huge bomb loads carried at night by Royal Air Force Avro Lancasters over Europe, and B-24s in the CBI. The chart on the left graphs the results described above.
Daytime precision bombing over Europe
Daytime precision bombing over Europe

Nighttime area bombing by the RAF
Nighttime area bombing by the RAF

[edit] 9 References

Notes

1. ^ Dorr 1999, p. 31. <--Consider this curious (absurd?) claim: "The H-, J-, L- or M-model Liberator could launch from a base in England, fly 830 miles (1300 km)--> , drop a bombload of up to 20,000 lb (9,100 kg) and make the return trip while defending itself with considerable tenacity from ever more persistent Luftwaffe fighters. For its longest missions of over 1,000 miles (1,600 km), the Liberator carried a much-reduced bombload of 6,000 lb (2700 kg), which usually consisted of a dozen 500-lb (227 kg) bombs."
2. ^ Redding and Yenne 1983, p. 87.
3. ^ Johnson 1999, p. 22.
4. ^ Johnson 2000, p. 34.
5. ^ Johnson 2000, p. 59.
6. ^ Kuhl 1993, p. 38.
7. ^ O’Neill 1999, p. 128.
8. ^ Bowman 1998, p. 135-138.
9. ^ 8th AF Missions 8th AF, 91st Bomb Group, 1944-08-05, B-17Gs, Bassingbourn to Nienburg, 8 x 1,000 lb bombs, 800 miles round trip as crow flies, (1,031 miles actually flown as reported by Wayne Frye) .
10. ^ 8th AF, 3rd Air Division, 4th and 13th Combat Wings, 1943-10-09, Thorpe Abbotts to Marienburg, 1,616 miles round trip "as the crow flies" (1,500 miles flown as reported), 4,540 lb bombload (217.9 tons dropped by 96 B-17s). Freeman 2000, p.76.
11. ^ Freeman 1993, p. 123-124.
12. ^ Freeman 2000, p. 153.
13. ^ Mission report from 467 BG Group’s web site 8th AF, 2nd AD, 467th Bomb Group, 1944-11-05, B-24Hs, Rackheath to Karlsruhe, 4 x 2,000,lb bombs, 876 miles round trip.
14. ^ Tidal Wave, August 1, 1943, 9th AF, 177 B-24D’s with “Tokyo Tanks” in wings attack seven targets around Ploesti from Bengazi, Libya, some carrying 3 x 1,000 lb bombs plus incendiaries and one bomb bay tank of 400 US gal (3,100 US gal total), and others with 4 x 500 lb bombs plus incendiaries and two bomb bay tanks. Round-trip distance 2,080 miles (reported as 2,500 miles).
15. ^ Bowman 1998, p. 43-56
16. ^ Freeman 2000, P.168.

Bibliography

* Bowman, Martin W. Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress. Ramsbury, Marlborough, Wiltshire, United Kingdom: Crowood Press, 1998. ISBN 1-86126-170-5.
* Delve, Ken, Avro Lancaster. Ramsbury, Marlborough, Wiltshire, United Kingdom: Crowood Press, 1999. ISBN 1-86126-222-1.
* Dorr, Robert F. B-24 Liberator Units of the Eighth Air Force. Oxford, UK: Osprey Publishing Limited, 1999. ISBN 1-85532-901-8.
* Freeman, Roger A. The Mighty Eighth. London: Cassell & Co., 2000. ISBN 1-85409-531-5.
* Freeman, Roger A. The Mighty Eighth War Manual. London: Cassell & Co., 2001. ISBN 0-304-35846-0.
* Johnson, Frederick A. B-17 Flying Fortress: The Symbol of Second World War Air Power. New York: McGraw Hill, 2000. ISBN 0-07-134445-4.
* Johnson, Frederick A. B-24 Liberator: Rugged But Right. New York: McGraw Hill, 1999. ISBN 0-07-134448-9.
* Kuhl, George C. Wrong Place! Wrong Time! The 305th Bomb Group & the 2nd Schweinfurt Raid October 14 1943. Atglen, Pennsylvania: Schiffer Publishing, 1993. ISBN 0-88740-445-6.
* Mason, Francis K., The Avro Lancaster. Bourne End, Bucks, UK: Aston Publications Ltd, 1989. ISBN 0-946627-30-4.
* Middlebrook, Martin, The Schweinfurt-Regensburg Mission: American Raids on 17 August 1943. London: Cassell & Co., 2000. ISBN 0-304-35344-2.
* O’Neill, Brian D. Half A Wing, Three Engines And A Prayer. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1999. ISBN 0-07-134145-5.
* Redding, Robert and Yenne, Bill. Boeing Planemaker to the World. San Diego: Thunder Bay Press, 1983. ISBN 1-57145-045-9.
* Richards, Denis, The Hardest Victory. New York: W. W. Norton & Company, 1995. ISBN 0-393-03763-0.
* Salecker, Gene Eric. Fortress Against The Sun: The B-17 Flying Fortress in the Pacific. New York: Da Capo Press, 2001. ISBN 1-58097-049-4.

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Talk:Maximum reported B-17 & B-24 bomb loads

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[edit] 1 Cleanup

Has begun. LanceBarber 19:42, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


[edit] 2 Point

Can somebody explain the point of this article, the few facts could be in the relevant articles, and why only B-17 and B-24. MilborneOne (talk) 13:56, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

A very good question! As I was making changes, I got the funny felling that all I was doing was putting "lipstick on the pig." FWIW Bzuk (talk) 15:05, 29 December 2007 (UTC).

The point of the article can be found in the first paragraph: "The purpose is to tie information of the relative effectiveness of the two bombers to real data and actual practice". In the first footnote, you will find a popular author stating a bomb load and range for the B-24 over the Continent of Europe during WW2 that is absurd. The point of my article was to give those interested in the subject a comparison of these two bombers based on reports of the pilots and crew so that when reading books making wild claims they would have a way to sort through them. Why only the B-17 & B-24? The planes were produced by the same industrial base to meet the same threat in roughly the same time period. The different responses by different designers makes the comparison interesting, I think. Edweirdo (talk) 17:08, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

So the point of the article is to compare two aircraft built at the same time in the United States so readers can check that the bomb loads in references are correct. ! Still not convinced I dont see why the info can not be in the B-17 and B-24 article. MilborneOne (talk) 17:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Is it important that you be convinced? And what is the point you are making: that all references to the B-17 be included in one huge article? Not everyone reading the B-17 article wants to wade through every subsidiary article. Also, the B-17 and B-24 articles have links in an appropriate place to this one. Does "cleanup" mean consolidation? How about combining all bomber articles under a giant offering titled "Bombers".Edweirdo (talk) 22:44, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

No it is not important that I am convinced - just if I am not then I will consider a Request for Deletion. Dont have a problem with child articles just the fact that this is comparing two random different aircraft. Perhaps we should have Lancaster v Halifax etc etc. Links are not a problem and not a reason for keeping an article. MilborneOne (talk) 23:32, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

This is in no way comparing "two random different aircraft" (nice phrasing). The Consolidated Aircraft Corporation was asked to produce B-17s like Lockheed/Vega and Douglas (in addition to Boeing), and they asked, and were permitted, to build a design of their own, the B-24. The question of which of these two designs worked out best is relevant and interesting to some people but not apparantly to you. Edweirdo (talk) 23:57, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Looks a lot like Original Research to me. --Rlandmann (talk) 08:37, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

The article resulted from my failure to find an 8th Air Force table for the B-17 and B-24 showing, for targets at various distances, the minimum amount of fuel and maximum weight of bombs that each could or should carry. The Crowood Aviation Series book "Avro Lancaster" by Ken Delve shows such a table for the Lancaster and Halifax bombers on page 56. In lieu of such facts giving the operational practices of the commanders in the field, I created a spreadsheet for every mission reported by pilots and crews showing range to the target and weight and types of bombs dropped, etc. I reported the maxima of these data to establish, roughly, the extreme capabilities of the two aircraft as employed over Europe, eg, the top and bottom entries of a table. I thought that by writing the article in Wikipedia someone who knew of such tables used by the United States Army Air Forces in WW2 might edit them in. I question whether this is Original Research. Edweirdo (talk) 16:09, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

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