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ISKCON Guru System

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ISKCON Guru System

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Chanting beads, normally of tulasi wood given by an ISKCON Guru at the initiation to an ISKCON devotee of Krishna.

ISKCON guru is permitted to initiate disciples in the system that is being used in International Society for Krishna Consciousness; this ISKCON Guru System has undergone a considerable evolution and reform since its beginnings in 1970s. Upanayana as a traditional "sacred thread ceremony" of the Gayatri Mantra, commonly known Hindu Samskara, is complemented by Pancaratric mantras of the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya and follows the principal initial nama initiation ceremony, refereed respectively as brahmana diksa and Hari nama diksa.[1]
Contents

1 Etymology
2 Philosophy
3 Parallel lines of authority
4 Background
5 History
5.1 Direct initiations
5.2 Early deviations
5.3 Proxy initiations
5.4 Ritvik initiations in 1977
5.5 After death
5.5.1 Period of no initiations
5.5.2 Early Zonal acaryas period
5.5.3 Mid Zonal acaryas period
5.5.4 Zonal Guru reform
5.5.5 New ISKCON Guru System
6 Controversies
6.1 Siddhaswarupa
6.2 Gaudiya Math leaders
6.3 The rtivik heresy
7 Notes
8 References and Links
9 See also

[edit] 1 Etymology

ISKCON Gaudiya Vaishnavas often refer to lexicons of Amarakośa thesaurus of Sanskrit for meanings of words and according to the writings of the Gaudiya acaryas, the word guru is very often defined as one who; represents the Supreme Lord, who does not manufacture anything, but teaches in accordance with the scriptures (sastra) and the previous ācāryas.[2] This definition of a wider concept of guru in Hinduism links the question of the relative authority of the guru’s words and those of the sastra in a crucial relationship. Baladeva Vidyabhushana, 18th century principal Gaudiya theologian used and defined guru in his commentaries on Vedanta-sutra. Specifically, in the comments to the sutras 3.3.44-45 Baladeva Vidyabhushana argues that the concept of guru’s grace plays the central role in the system of teacher-student succession."
[edit] 2 Philosophy
Images on the dome of the samadhi of Prabhupada, pre-eminent siksa guru to all ISKCON devotees.

Scriptural evidence towards the issue of a guru lies mainly in a large volume of Sanskrit work named Hari Bhakti Vilasa which received commentary by Sanatana Gosvami. It is the foundation of traditional Vaishnava philosophy and has 9.275 verses, divided in twenty chapters (called Vilasas). First chapter is dedicated to guru, with second dedicated to ritual process of initiation by the guru. The worship of guru is described towards the end of the third vilasa.[3]

The place of guru and his grace (prasada) plays a vital role in the Vaisnava traditions in general and in ISKCON Gaudiya Vaishnavism in particular. The generic view on a guru as a representative of God is a central feature to the tradition and philosophy:

God and the soul combine in their own ways within the archetype of the spiritual guide. For both, the spiritual master is a type of extraordinary confluence of divinity and humanity, as each tradition exalts ways in which the guide becomes directly and effectively the grace of God in the flesh.
—Graham M. Schweig

In contrast with the established traditional view of ISKCON some rare sahajia groups in Bengal treat their own preceptor (guru) as the living God.[4] This view is different or contrasted to the concept of a guru being "as good as God".[3]

Unlike being a god in a human form,[5] the process of being appointed as a guru within ISKCON is currently done by a process which could be described as consensual or democratic and involves voting.[6] It is suggested that being as good as god is not a theological but a practical consideration, just as wife serves her husband in Hindu traditions as good as god.[3]

While the "submission of the disciple is neither irrational or blind."[7] The question of qualification and humility remained opened for generations prior to creation of ISKCON in the West. In his speech Assuming Responsibility of Being Guru Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, who founded the popular branch of the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition that resulted in creation of ISKCON, underlined the contrast of humility and responsibility of the performance of the duties of being a guru:

"He whose only teaching is humility greater than that of a blade of grass (Caitanya Mahaprabhu), said: "By My command being guru save this land!" In this instance Mahaprabhu Himself has given the command. His command being "Perform the duty of the guru, even as I do it Myself. Also convey this command to whom-so-ever you chance to meet."
—Sarasvati. 1934

It has been seen that much of the debate over authority and continuity over the years has focused on one issue: namely, whether current GBC members and gurus are spiritually qualified.[8][9] Guru in a post-charismatic phase of ISKCON is a subject of number studies and debates.

According to the Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati ceremony of diksha in Gaudiya Vaisnavism, also called initiation, is that "by which the spiritual preceptor admits one to the status of a neophyte on the path of spiritual endeavor." [7]
[edit] 3 Parallel lines of authority

ISKCON is seen as an extension of the Gaudiya-Vaishnava tradition and thus participates in the disciplic succession from Caitanya Mahaprabhu. In most Indic traditions spiritual authority rests in one person, or acharya, head of a monastery or a whole sampradaya. ISKCON is sometimes described as the "first global Vaisnava movement" and is different. ISKCON is a multi-guru organization that places the ultimate managerial authority in its Governing Body, a group rather than a single person. Current ISKCON Guru System is developed by the group of leaders, Governing Body Commission, (GBC), the managerial authority of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. ISKCON Guru system was originally initiated and put in place by ISKCON's founder, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada who organized and sometimes himself conducted initiations since early 1970s. Currently the GBC is entrusted with both spiritual and secular leadership of the ISKCON communities, as well as the power to appoint new gurus. According to a GBC confidence survey "those holding critical views of the GBC were far less committed to ISKCON" and it was also noted that householder members of ISKCON provides less support for ISKCON's gurus and the guru institution than the residents of ISKCON asramas controlled by GBC.[10] In recent years GBC started to develop a regional seminar "Spiritual Leadership: Being a Guru in ISKCON" and made it mandatory for all future gurus to attend. The course is based on the work of a group of seniors representing cross section of international devotees and is developed in coordination with Vaisnava Training and Education, the Guru Services Committee of GBC. It was launched in Ujjain just prior to the 2008 annual GBC meetings.[11] Sastric Advisory Council to GBC has reported that there is a desire for control of who is ISKCON guru, the present system does not provides effective safeguards and at the same time contradicts the truly humble attitude of the Vaishnavas and is in danger of gradual corruption.[12]
[edit] 4 Background

In 1977 eleven prominent leaders were left to become an initiating gurus in ISKCON.[13][14][15][16] Since founder’s death the number of ISKCON devotees accepting disciples has increased. Recently, some of grand-disciples (disciples of disciples) have begun to accept disciples in the next generation. Prabhupada is officially considered a Founder-acarya, and is assumed to be "pre-eminent" guru of all devotees in his society.

According to the theological epistemology of the tradition, scriptural or Vedic knowledge is the only way to achieve the knowledge of the out-worldly or transcendental realm. However the notable exception to this rule is what is called vaidushya-pratyaksa, or the faultless and pure preception of a pure realised soul, which forms the foundation the scripture itself.[17]

There are a few rear female gurus in Gaudiya Vaishnavism, however until 2009 there were no approved women gurus in ISKCON.

In a typical initiation ceremony as a guru of International Society for Krishna Consciousness he would begin with purification using achamana (holy water) and concludes with a sermon on the importance of chanting of the holy names in the life of new initiate.[18]
[edit] 5 History
[edit] 5.1 Direct initiations
Satsvarupa das Goswami During ISKCON diksa ceremony in 1979.

The history of initiations in ISKCON is started with the foundation of the society in 1966 and develops through a number of periods from the initial date to present times. During the first initiations in September 1966 disciples were given names, asked to remain strictly vegetarian and asked to chant 25 rounds of japa. Soon additional requirements followed, but the number of prescribed rounds of Hare Krishna japa was reduced to the minimum 16.

At my initiation, Prabhupäda told me to chant twenty-five rounds, but shortly afterwards he reduced the number to sixteen. After my initiation I faithfully executed Prabhupäda’s order to chant sixteen rounds a day.
—Satsvarupa Dasa Goswami.[19]

Some devotees shaved their heads after the first initiation. First second initiation was in Boston, May 9, 1968 where only male devotees were initiated. However next day saw a number of women initiated too.[20]

From the period of the first initiation in 1966 until early 1970 Srila Prabhupada would organize all initiations personally. At this stage Hare Krishna movement was rather small in numbers and most of the devotees were located in United States.
[edit] 5.2 Early deviations

At a festival at New Vrindaban, West Virginia, on Janmastami day 1970, the senior man, Kirtananda Swami, along with other three leaders, Sudama, Brahmananda and Visnujana, had announced that by leaving America, Prabhupada had rejected his disciples for failing to recognize that Prabhupada was actually Krishna Himself. This is considered to be a sign of mayavada-impersonalism. Some note that "Kirtananda had previously failed to distinguish between the personal and impersonal" understandings of God, and at this point he was among the four who had failed to distinguish the guru from the God.[8] All four were banned from preaching within ISKCON. One was demonized by his Godbrothers,[8] but Visnujana Swami is still considered a saint, despite his sudden disappearance in 1976. Visnujana Swami along with Sudama and Brahmananda were given sannyasa directly after the expulsion.
[edit] 5.3 Proxy initiations

Starting from 1971 Prabhupada would start delegating the function of chanting of beads and doing yajna to his disciples. He would often initiate by mail and every temple president had a cassette of Prabhupada chanting the gayatri mantra which was played in the ear of the new second initiate and that was as good as hearing the gayatri mantra from Srila Prabhupada himself.[21] From the beginning of January 1973 Revatinandana and Kirtanananda were instructed also to chant on the beads of new initiates while Prabhupada would continue to deal with the "matter of brahmana initiations", however sometimes the mantra was given personally by disciples too.[22][23]
[edit] 5.4 Ritvik initiations in 1977

In 1977 that was also changed by Prabhupada, and even the function of the second initiation was delegated to a few selected disciples. In the middle of May 1977, while in Hrishikesh, his health had turned for the worse and Prabhupada called all his GBC members to Vrindavana for instruction.[24] The discussion of May 28 was recorded. There was a backlog of candidates and on 9 July a letter by his secretary, Tamal Krishna Goswami, was sent out, and that named eleven senior disciples who would now be responsible for giving initiations to the new candidates. At this point the new candidates need no longer write to him and the recommendations don’t have to come to him for confirmation.[22]
[edit] 5.5 After death

A number or scholars have documented the struggle for authority created by Prabhupada’s departure. Two supporters of ISKCON, Shriman Narayan, the former Governor of Gujarat and a prominent industrialist Ram Krishna Bajaj raised issues of the appointment of a single successor from among his followers. Prabhupada answered that all his disciples would succeed him.[8]
[edit] 5.5.1 Period of no initiations

The period from the date of death till the March 1978 annual meeting saw no initiations in ISKCON. Annual meeting of Governing commission of ISKCON was scheduled before Gaura Purnima festival in March and Prabhupada long established that the GBC are his "direct representatives to act as the instrument for the execution of the will of His Divine Grace".[25]
[edit] 5.5.2 Early Zonal acaryas period

From 1978 till 1982 only eleven devotees were allowed to initiate new disciples and give brahmana (or second) initiation to existing ISKCON devotees, who became known as Prabhupada disciples despite receiving sampradaya mantra from new ISKCON gurus. There was noticeable difference between these newly appointed ISKCON gurus and Prabhupada. The new ISKCON gurus, known as Zonal acaryas, were all under the age of thirty-five—many were still in their twenties—and some had only been devotees for five years at the time of their appointment. Yet they had not only become the movement’s elders, they were catapulted to an absolute status. Beginning in 1980, less than three years after Prabhupada’s death, guru controversies arose in rapid succession. In general, ISKCON was led by young men who, until the formation of the first schisms, wielded much power despite their lack of maturity. In the words of one GBC member: “In Prabhupada’s time the only problem was that there was only one real adult in the movement.”[26]
[edit] 5.5.3 Mid Zonal acaryas period

In 1982 a few new gurus were added to the list, including Gopala Krishna Goswami and Bhaktisvarupa Damodar Swami. All gurus at this stage were assigned honorific names, such as Srila Gurudeva, Srila Vishnupada, Srila Gurupada, Srila Acharyadeva, Srila Bhagavatpada, Srila Bhaktipada etc., they also accepted daily worship on a Vyasasana, the throne was allocated to each person, but a collective Vyasasanas were specially constructed for gatherings. When one of the eleven gurus, Jayatirtha, defected to Gaudiya Math by waking out the Mayapur campus towards Sridhara Swami, the later tried to mediate between the GBC and Jayatirtha, who recently took sannyasa, but that increased tensions with Gaudiya Math and Sridhara Swami's followers serving in ISKCON. This year, 1982, GBC expelled Jayatirtha from ISKCON and a sub-committee was sent in the middle of the meetings to his GBC zone to prevent the crisis. His disciples had locked themselves in a separate building near Bhaktivedanta Manor and would not engage in negotiations. Later a separate committee was formed to appoint new ISKCON gurus for his zone.[27] During this period at least one of the eleven gurus had suggested lowering the worship received, but this motion was not passed.[28]
[edit] 5.5.4 Zonal Guru reform

A number of devotees, all directly initiated by Prabhupada, were observing that many controlling positions were being lost to disciples of new gurus. Additionally one of the gurus was conditionally suspended during 1984 GBC meetings for sexual misconduct. An informal group headed by Ravindra Svarupa Dasa and others was formed in 1984 to investigate and gather information about possible deviations in different regions. This campaign resulted in Temple Presidents meeting in New Vrindavana, September 1985, headed by Bahuka Das, the President of the North American Temple Presidents, Ravindra Svarupa Dasa, Vice President and Krishna Gaopal Das, the Secretary. A threat of no confidence vote was issued towards the Governing Body Commission and demand that all power to be returned to direct disciples of Prabhupada. A number of senior GBCs, including Tamal Krishna Goswami and Satsvarupa Das Goswami, became active supporters of the reform. However, in November 1985 European management assembly had issued a protest against the demands of the North American temple presidents and issued a joint statement. The reformers aimed at removing dedicated vyasasanas from the temple space, stopping daily guru puja ceremonies for new gurus and reforming use of honorifics among others, reserving use of His Divine Grace,-pada and -deva honorifics only towards Prabhupada himself. A demand to include new GBCs and new ISKCON gurus was issued and 1986 saw both resignations of a number of Zonal gurus and increased number of new gurus and GBCs. End of 1985 also saw an attack on most senior ISKCON guru, Kirtanananda Swami, who refused to accept lowering of the worship and insisted that he should retain the title of Founder-acarya of New Vrindavana. Following this conflict between this largest ISKCON community and the reformers New Vrindavana was officially expelled from ISKCON in 1988, all reformers shortly became new ISKCON gurus and many of them were elected as the new GBC. (Bozeman. 2000)
[edit] 5.5.5 New ISKCON Guru System

1990s saw stabilization of the ISKCON Guru System. In 1994 disciples of Gour Govinda Swami, suggested an alternative where he, or another devotee, is to be selected as a formal acharya, this proposal sponsored by GBC correspondence secretary Bhakta Rupa Dasa was rejected in the vote. GBC has approved grand-disciples of Prabhupada, such a Krishna das Swami of London on the list of initiating gurus. African, Russian and South American grand disciple gurus followed. New concept of guru in ISKCON does not include the requirement for guru to be seen as infallible or a topmost devotee of Krishna, however a set of basic norms of behavior and conduct is expected and monitored by the GBC standing committee, including proficiency in scriptural knowledge. The proposal of ISKCON Guru System reform are continuing to be presented to the GBC body.(Bozeman. 2000)
[edit] 6 Controversies
[edit] 6.1 Siddhaswarupa

A prominent disciple of Prabhupada (Siddha Swarup Ananda Goswami/Chris Butler of Science of Identity Institute) who had following in the yoga training prior to joining would not accept existing leadership and would face a conflict with the GBC management structure. He began initiating his own disciples prior to death of Prabhupada and had his own movement after the split in 1975. He maintained the leadership over the disenchanted ISKCON members in Hawaii even as they formed their own political party. With the departure, the tension between Siddha Svarupa and ISKCON devotees increased, although Siddhaswarupa maintained a cordial relationship with Prabhupada. Since 1977 Siddhaswarupa does not accept that the eleven devotees whom Prabhupada appointed were gurus or acharyas. And he sees himself in this lineage of pure but non-appointed devotees.[29][30]
[edit] 6.2 Gaudiya Math leaders

Many deviations or guru related schisms are centered on charismatic individual leadership. After the pre-1977 departure of Siddhaswarupa, a number of ISKCON devotees started following variety of Gaudiya Math gurus, all of whom were individual leaders of separate parallel institutions. One of the leaders of the schismatic groups is Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja, who was a friend and a well-wisher of ISKCON for many years and a personal friend of Prabhupada. While Narayana Maharaja’s large following was restricted to non-ISKCON Indians prior to 1991, with an exception of a few ISKCON Vrindavana residents, nearly all of his post-1991 Western followers were previously ISKCON members, and since the majority of his Western followers have left ISKCON in 1995 after the GBC action, these followers have turned to ISKCON for fresh recruits escalating the conflict. Following many years of apparent confrontation in April 2010 ISKCON’s Governing Body Commission has released a forty-page document that clarifies the relationship between Prabhupada and Narayana Maharaja.

This document follows up a meeting between Narayana Maharaja and several senior members of the GBC in October 2009 at the sacred town of Govardhana, India. During the meeting, ISKCON leaders apologized to Narayana Maharaja for their failure to communicate with him in a proper and timely manner in 1995, regarding policies they had just established concerning members of ISKCON taking instruction from other gurus outside of their society, but did not accept his claims on sucessorship.[31]
[edit] 6.3 The rtivik heresy

As some news of ISKCON gurus’ misdeeds spread in late 1980s, some ISKCON members began to question the validity of Prabhupada’s having appointed members to the role of the spiritual master. Members in early 1990s attempted to prove that there was no need for any new gurus; rather, Prabhupada’s disciples could initiate newcomers on Prabhupada’s behalf as proxies for Prabhupada (the Sanskrit word rtvik means “officiating priest”). There are number of different or contradictory fractions in the rtvik heresy. This is the third major schism in ISKCON Guru System. The leader of ISKCON Bangalore, Madhu Paṇḍita Dāsa, can also be called charismatic. Yet he came to the group in the late 1990s, after the rtvik guru philosophy was first propagated in ISKCON. However of the various rtvik groups, his Bangalore based group is by far the most successful in influence.[32]
[edit] 7 Notes

^ First is sinonimous to what in other Vaisnava traditions is called Saranagati Diksa or Pancha Samskara.
^ A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami: The Science of Self Realization - What Is a Guru? "Reporter: How can a person tell he has a genuine guru? Śrīla Prabhupāda: Can any of my students answer this question? Disciple: Once I remember John Lennon asked you, “How will I know who is the genuine guru?” And you answered, “Just find out the one who is most addicted to Kṛṣṇa. He is genuine.” Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. The genuine guru is God’s representative, and he speaks about God and nothing else. The genuine guru is he who has no interest in materialistic life. He is after God, and God only. That is one of the tests of a genuine guru: brahma-niṣṭham. He is absorbed in the Absolute Truth. In the Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad it is stated, śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham: [MU 1.2.12] “The genuine guru is well versed in the scriptures and Vedic knowledge, and he is completely dependent on Brahman.” He should know what Brahman [spirit] is and how to become situated in Brahman. These signs are given in the Vedic literature. As I said before, the real guru is God’s representative. He represents the Supreme Lord, just as a viceroy represents a king. The real guru will not manufacture anything. Everything he says is in accordance with the scriptures and the previous ācāryas
^ a b c Måns Broo: As Good as God. The Guru in Gaudiya Vaisnavism. ISBN 83-85527-56-7, [1](Åbo: Åbo Akademis Förlag 2003).
^ Pratibharanjan Maitra (ed.), Mursidabad carca. Khagra/Baharampur/Mursidabad: Mursidabad Carca Kendra, 1395 (Beng. Era), pp. 93-122.
^ Kartabhajas on the contrast maintain: guru thaken sahasrare, sat-cakra upare “The guru resides in the Sahasrara [within the human body], on top of the six cakras”. See Adbaita Candra Das: Sri satima candrika. Calcutta 1986, p. 87.
^ Hrdayananda Dasa Goswami: The Role of the Guru in a Multi-Guru Society, ISKCON Communications Journal 8,1 (June 2000): 45-53.
^ a b Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, Initiation Into The Spiritual Life, December 1928, Vol 26. 7 Sri Sajjana-toshani
^ a b c d T.K. Goswami, 'The Perils of Succession Heresies of Authority and Continuity In the Hare Krishna Movement', Cults and Society, Vol. 1, 1, 2001.
^ See also:‘Leader Misconduct, Religious Authority, and the Development of the Hare Krishna Movement,’ in Anson Shupe, ed, Wolves Among the Fold. New Brunswick: Rutgers University Press, 1997
^ Rochford, E. Burke (2007) Hare Krishna Transformed, p. 245,70. "GBC Confidence Survey"
^ Dasa, A.T. GBC Meetings 2008 - Day 2: ISKCON Guru Seminar, Scientific Preaching and Mayapur Academy Graduation. News.ISKCON.com
^ From SAC statement: The GBC desires to exercise some control over who represents ISKCON as initiating gurus. The SAC proposes, however, that the present system does not provide effective safeguards, and at the same time it stifles initiative. In other words, applying for the guru post and approaching devotees for recommendations does not sit well with truly humble Vaisnavas. And it’s the truly humble who are most worthy to become our Society’s gurus. We should also be aware from the history of other sampradayas and religions of the real danger of gradual corruption. Even if apparent purity were maintained for some time by a bureaucratic regulating system of authorization, the eternal temptations of misusing the status of guru for self-aggrandizement could ruin the system and the institution. In future generations we, like other sampradayas, could become burdened with gurus who collect disciples mainly for money and power. Such corruption could occur even while maintaining the external appearance of bureaucratic purity. Therefore SAC suggests that the GBC shift their oversight to mainly after-the-fact. Exactly how this is to be implemented should be decided by the GBC. Bureaucratic processes about the suitability of a person to function as guru before the person has actually functioned as a guru have not proved successful as an effective guarantee. The actual behavior of the person as guru has, in practice, turned out to be the only effective basis for determining merit. One might argue that such a system does not guarantee that a guru will remain fixed on the spiritual platform, but that is true of any system.[citation needed]
^ Smith, Huston; Harry Oldmeadow (2004). Journeys East: 20th century Western encounters with Eastern religious traditions. Bloomington, Ind: World Wisdom. pp. 272. ISBN 0-941532-57-7. "Before his death Prabhupada appointed eleven American devotees as gurus."
^ Rochford, E. Burke (1985). Hare Krishna in America. New Brunswick, N.J: Rutgers University Press. pp. 222. ISBN 0-8135-1114-3. "In the months preceding his death Srila Prabhupada appointed eleven of his closest disciples to act as initiating gurus for ISKCON"
^ Ron Rhodes (2001). Challenge of the Cults and New Religions. Zondervan. pp. 179. ISBN 0-310232171. ""Before Prabhupada died in 1977, he selected senior devotees who would continue to direct the organization.""
^ Rodney Stark (1985). Religious movements. Paragon House Publishers. pp. 100. ISBN 0913757438. "Satsvarupa dasa Goswami, one of the eleven initiating gurus Bhaktivedanta appointed to succeed him..."
^ Sarva-samvadini commentary to Tattva sandarbhuas, 12, by Jiva Goswami cited in Måns Broo: As Good as God. The Guru in Gaudiya Vaisnavism. ISBN 83-85527-56-7 p. 9.
^ Shinn 1987, p. 104
^ Gosvāmī, Satsvarūpa Dāsa (1997). With Śrīla Prabhupāda in the early days: a memoir. Port Royal, Pa: GN Press. ISBN 0-911233-84-9.
^ According to Prabhupada: "Yes, there is definitely a vast difference between initiated and non-initiated. One who is initiated is authorized, and one who is not initiated is not authorized." Letter to Satsvarupa Dasa Goswami, November 14, 1968.
^ Letter to a temple president 15 December 1973 would state: "Take instruction from Satsvarupa Goswami on how to properly perform the fire yajna after which the initiates may listen once to the mantra in the right ear from the cassette tape I have made."
^ a b "Kirtanananda will chant on the beads for new devotees in America, Canada, like that, you can chant on the beads for the European continent new disciples." Letter 73-01-04 cited in: Dasa,Hari Sauri A brief overview of the history of the process of initiation in ISKCON.
^ Addressing a concern that one of the disciples, Siddhaswarupa started initiating his own disciples a letter to Tusta Krsna Swami, his associate, was send on December 2, 1975: “Keep trained very rigidly, and then you are bona fide guru, and you can accept disciples on the same principle. But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic succession. I want to see my disciples become bona fide spiritual master and spread Krishna consciousness very widely; that will make me and Kṛṣṇa very happy.”
^ When they arrived Prabhupāda told them, “Now, if you have any questions about anything that is not clear, you meet together, you formulate your questions, and then you come to me and I will answer them.”
^ Gosvāmī, Satsvarūpa Dāsa. Srīla Prabhupāda-līlāmrta: a biography of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. IV. Los Angeles: Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. pp. 103–104. ISBN 0-89213-357-0.
^ Brian Bloch "Social Theory and Schisms in the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, Presentation on ISKCON Studies conference, 2008
^ Betrayal of the spirit: my life behind the headlines of the Hare Krishna By Nori Jean Muster, University of Illinois Press. p. 83
^ Satsvarupa dasa Goswami, Journals and Poems, vol.1-2 Gita Nagari Press 1980-1986.
^ Haribols Special cited in The book of enlightened masters: western teachers in eastern traditions. Andrew Rawlinson - 1997
^ From slogans to mantras: social protest and religious conversion in the late Vietnam War era by Stephen A. Kent - Syracuse University Press 2001, p.65.
^ M.Smullen. ISKCON News. New GBC Paper Clarifies Relationship Between Srila Prabhupada and Narayana Maharaja.
^ See also: Ed. Rahul Peter Das The Rival Positions in the IRM–GBC Controversy within ISKCON. Authorised statements by Krishnakant Desai and Christopher Shannon ISBN 3-86010-844-1

[edit] 8 References and Links

Bozeman, John M. 2000: Field Notes: ISKCON’s Extensive Reform Efforts, Nova Religio 3,2: 383-387.
Brezezinski, Jan.1996-1997: The Parampara Institution in Gaudiya Vaisnavism, Journal of Vaishnava Studies 5,1: 151-182.
Dasa, Gaura-keshava. 1998: Guru Ashraya. A Report to the GBC on Guru Issues.
Dasa, Raghupati. 1998: Lokanatha Disciple Hits Back at Report.
Dasa, Sri Rama. 2001: Proposal to Restructure the ISKCON GBC.
Shinn, Larry (1987). The dark lord: cult images and the Hare Krishnas in America. Philadelphia: Westminster Press. pp. 44–45. ISBN 0-664-24170-0.
Ketola, Kimmo (2008). The founder of the Hare Krishnas as seen by devotees: a cognitive study of religious charisma. Brill. pp. 234 pages. ISBN 9-004-16613-0.
Goswami, Tamal Krishna 1997: 'The Perils of Succession Heresies of Authority and Continuity In the Hare Krishna Movement', Cults and Society, Vol. 1, 1, 2001. also in ISKCON Communications Journal 5,1: 13-44.
GBC Body, ISKCON. 1995: Gurus and Initiation in ISKCON. Law of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. Mayapura: GBC Press.
ISKCON Studies Conference, The Guru: Person, Position, Possibilities. Italy. 2009.
GBC Body, ISKCON. ISKCON GBC Addendum "Clarification of the process." March 1978
Dasa, Bahudak, Letter to Ravindra Svarup, Dec 4. 1984.
ISKCON Zonal Ministry of Public Affairs, European Assembly Meeting: Guru Reforms, Paris, Nov. 8-10 1985.
Das, Adi Kesava, Guru Reform paper tabled to GBC Body, 1985.
Sastric Avisory Committiee, Female Diksa Gurus ISKCON position on female diksa gurus.
Goswami, Satsvarupa dasa.[2] 1996 Guru Reform Notebook. (GN Press)
Rocheford Jr., E. Burke 1998: “Prabhupada Centennial Survey. Final Report”. Submitted to the GBC on November 18, 1998.

[edit] 9 See also

Gaudiya Vaishnavism
Bhaktivedanta Book Trust
List of Hindu gurus and saints
Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies
Bhaktivedanta College

v · d · e Caitanya Sampradaya
Sampradaya Acaryas
Pre Caitanya

Kṛṣṇa · Brahmā · Nārada · Vyāsa · Madhva · Padmanābha · Nṛhari · Mādhava · Akṣobhya · Jaya Tīrtha · Jñānasindhu · Dayānidhi · Vidyānidhi ·
Rājendra · Jayadharma · Puruṣottama · Brahmaṇya Tīrtha · Vyāsa Tīrtha · Lakṣmīpati · Mādhavendra Purī · Īśvara Purī · Advaita
Post Caitanya
Caitanya · Nityānanda · Rūpa, (Svarūpa, Sanātana) · Raghunātha, Jīva · Kṛṣṇadāsa · Narottama · Viśvanātha · Jagannātha
Modern (Pre-ISKCON Guru System)

Bhaktivinoda · Gaurakiśora · Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī · Prabhupāda
v · d · eModern Gaudiya Vaishnavas (1875 to date)
After the Founding of
ISKCON
(1966 to date)

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada* · Aindra Dasa · Howard Beckman · Bhakti Caitanya Swami* · Bhakti Charu Swami* · Bhaktisvarupa Damodar Swami* · Bhakti Tirtha Swami* · Richard Shaw Brown · Michael Cremo · Henry Doktorski · Alfred Ford · Giriraja Swami* · Geoffrey Giuliano · Gopala Krishna Goswami* · Gour Govinda Swami* · Hansadutta Swami · Hanumatpresaka Swami* · Harikesa Swami · Hridaya Caitanya Dasa · Hridayananda Dasa Goswami* · Indradyumna Swami* · Jayadvaita Swami* · Jayananda Dasa · Jayapataka Swami* · Jayatirtha Dasa · Kadamba Kanana Swami* · Kirtanananda Swami · Krishna Dharma · Krishna Kshetra Dasa* · Kurt Mausert · Lokanatha Swami* · Malati Dasi · Mukunda Goswami* · Prabhavishnu Swami* · Radhanath Swami* · Radhika Ramana Dasa · Ramesh Kallidai · Ramesvara Swami · Ranchor Prime · Ravindra Svarupa Dasa* · Romapada Swami* · Steven J. Rosen · Sacinandana Swami* · Satsvarupa dasa Goswami* · Graham Schweig · Shaunaka Rishi Das · Sivarama Swami* · Suhotra Swami* · Tamala Krishna Goswami* · Tripurari Swami · Urmila Devi Dasi · Visnujana Swami · Yadunandana Swami
Pre-ISKCON

Bhakti Hridaya Bon Swami · Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Goswami · Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura · Bhaktivinoda Thakur · Gaurakishora Dasa Babaji · Jagannatha Dasa Babaji · Sadananda Swami · Vamana Dasa
*ISKCON guru

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Talk:ISKCON Guru System

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... that upon the death of the Hare Krishna founder in 1977, eleven prominent leaders were left to become an initiating gurus under the ISKCON Guru System?"

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The Holy Bible and Mormonism

2011-08-20T16:26:00.000+01:00

The Holy Bible and Mormonism

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The Holy Bible and Mormonism
Author(s) Christopher Mills
Cover artist Jana Rade
Country United States
Language English
Subject(s) Describes how LDS doctrinal teachings are upheld by the Holy Bible.
Genre(s) Non-fiction
Publisher Millennial Mind Publishing/American Book Publishing
Publication date October 1, 2009
Media type Print, Softcover, eBook
Pages 223 pp
ISBN 1589825217
LC Classification BX8635.3.M57 2009

Published on October 1, 2009, by Millennial Mind Publishing, The Holy Bible & Mormonism is a work explaining the King James Version of the Holy Bible from a Mormon point of view. The book also addresses criticism of beliefs and practices in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.[1]
[edit] 1 Topics covered

Pre-mortal Existence of Man
Grace, Faith and Works
Baptism
Baptism for the Dead
Resurrection and Degrees of Heaven
Temples
Eternal Marriage
Exaltation: Man Becoming as God
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit
God has a Body
The Holy Spirit and Feelings
Polygamy in the Early Church
The Priesthood
Prophets and Apostles
The Apostasy
The Restoration
Additional and Missing Scripture

[edit] 2 References

^ Mills, Christopher. The Holy Bible and Mormonism. Millennial Mind Publishing, 2009

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Banner of Truth Trust

2011-08-20T16:23:00.000+01:00

Banner of Truth Trust

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Banner of Truth Trust
Banner of Truth.jpg
Status Active
Founded 1957
Founder Iain Murray, Jack Cullum
Country of origin United Kingdom
Headquarters location Edinburgh, Scotland
Carlisle, Pennsylvania
Distribution Worldwide
Publication types Books, magazine
Nonfiction topics Theology
Official website banneroftruth.org
For another magazine previously known as The Banner of Truth, see The Banner (magazine).

The Banner of Truth Trust is an evangelical and Reformed Christian non-profit[1] publishing house, structured as a charitable trust[2] and founded in London in 1957[3] by Iain Murray and Jack Cullum. Its offices are now in Edinburgh, Scotland with a key branch office and distribution point in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.[1] It positions itself within the conservative evangelical wing of the church, and has been described as "an extremely powerful organization within British nonconformist evangelicalism."[4]

The trust publishes a monthly magazine called The Banner of Truth which normally appears eleven times per year, with there being a single issue for August and September.[5] The magazine first appeared in September 1955[6] and as of December 2010 had reached issue number 566.[7]

The Banner of Truth Trust also holds conferences in three countries: UK (annual youth conference and annual ministers' conference[8]), USA (annual conference[9]), and Australia (every two years[10]).

The trust has been connected with the revival of interest in evangelical Calvinism in 20th century England.[11] It has promoted Puritan theology[4] and helped resurrect the ideas of Jonathan Edwards.[3][12][13] Alister McGrath refers to the "revival in Puritan spirituality that had been borne aloft on the wings of Banner of Truth's inexpensive paperbacks."[14]
[edit] 1 References

^ a b "The Story of The Banner of Truth" by Iain H. Murray.
^ Charity Commission for England and Wales registered charity 235652.
^ a b Stein, Stephen J. (2007). The Cambridge Companion to Jonathan Edwards. Cambridge University Press. p. 230.
^ a b George, Timothy (2009). J. I. Packer and the Evangelical Future: The Impact of His Life and Thought. Baker. pp. 1900,1905.
^ The Banner of Truth Magazine Monthly Contents
^ The Banner of Truth Trust (1990), Index to Banner of Truth, 1955-1989: "index to all issues of The Banner of Truth, the Trust's monthly magazine from the first issue in September 1955."
^ The Banner of Truth, Contents, Issue 566, December 2010
^ Banner of Truth United Kingdom Conference Schedule.
^ Luimes, M. (May/June 2006). "American Banner Of Truth Conference". The Trumpet (Orthodox Christian Reformed Churches in North America).
^ Kavanagh, Chris (2004). "Banner of Truth Conference: Sydney 2004". Faith in Focus: Magazine of the Reformed Churches of New Zealand 31 (5): 4-5. Retrieved 17 August 2011.
^ Moes, Garry J. (2003). Streams Of Civilization: Cultures In Conflict Since The Reformation Until The Third Millennium After Christ, Volume 2. Christian Liberty Press. p. 396.
^ Hart, Darryl G.; Lucas, Sean Michael (2007). The Legacy of Jonathan Edwards: American Religion and the Evangelical Tradition. Baker. p. 21.
^ Lee, Sang Hyun (2005). The Princeton Companion to Jonathan Edwards. Princeton University Press. p. 305.
^ McGrath, Alister (1997). J.I. Packer: A Biography. Baker. p. 218.

[edit] 2 External links

"The Story of The Banner of Truth" by Iain H. Murray
The Finder of Reformed Christian Sources — magazine & conferences index, compiled by Michael Keen

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Talk:Banner of Truth Trust

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Find sources: "Banner of Truth Trust" – news · books · scholar · free images
[edit] 1 What links here

I've done minor updates to several articles that already cited a book published by the Banner of Truth, so that these now link here. This task is probably incomplete. DFH 19:38, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] 2 The significance of the Banner of Truth

To expand the article, it would be sensible to include something about the influence of the Banner of Truth in rekindling an interest in Reformed and Puritan literature in the English speaking world during the second half of the twentieth century. DFH 19:57, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

This is the reason I have tagged this article for WikiProject Calvinism. DFH 19:51, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

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(cur | prev) 2007-03-29T19:51:21 David Haslam (talk | contribs) (835 bytes) (→The significance of the Banner of Truth: :This is the reason I have tagged this article for WikiProject Calvinism. ~~~~) (undo)
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(cur | prev) 2006-09-04T19:38:59 David Haslam (talk | contribs) (246 bytes) (What links here)

Christian Maramatanga Society

2011-08-20T16:21:00.000+01:00

Christian Maramatanga Society

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The Christian Maramatanga Society is a small Christian based denomination originating in New Zealand in mid-1920s.
[edit] 1 History

Following a theological debate in the Rātana Established Church of New Zealand, Mrs. Ngapaki Hakaraia left the church to form her own movement at Kai Iwi , a settlement in New Zealand to the west of Wanganui. It is said that when Mr. Tahupotiki Wiremu Rātana, Mangai, founder of the Rātana Established Church of New Zealand (commonly known as Rātana Church) "closed the Bible", many thought that he implied that the members of the church should not read the Bible as well. This had an impact on Mrs. Hakaraia in which led to her forming her own church to ensure that the Bible "remained open". However, Rātana did not imply this but rather that the Bible be closed in order to stop fanciful prophecies being heralded from the Book of Revelation in the future.

Following the Rātana church, the Society actively engaged in politics.
[edit] 2 Today

The church continues today with a small membership.[citation needed]
[edit] 3 References

Henderson, James Mcleod (1963). Ratana The Man, The Church, The Movement (1st ed.) A.H & A.W. Reed Ltd ISBN 0-589-00619-3.
Evening Post, Volume CXXXVIII, Issue 153, 27 December 1944, Page 4 http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP19441227.2.23
Evening Post, Volume CXXXVIII, Issue 154, 28 December 1944, Page 7 http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP19441228.2.96
Evening Post, Volume CXXXVI, Issue 57, 4 September 1943, Page 8 http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP19430904.2.68

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(cur | prev) 2011-08-17T12:13:55 Dondegroovily (talk | contribs) m (2,358 bytes) (Delete merge tag per ongoing AfD discussion) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-17T00:53:47 Gadfium (talk | contribs) (2,393 bytes) (→Today: http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/biographies/4h3/1?setlang=en says the movement ended in 1964. Some evidence that it continues today is necessary.) (undo)
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Talk:Christian Maramatanga Society

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This needs to be disambiguated from the Maramatanga movement, which is older than Ratana (the founder was Wiremu Ratana's aunt), and which is now a movement within the Roman Catholic Church, and is active with several centers in the North Island of New Zealand and (I would estimate) a few thousand adherants. Sen Mcglinn (talk) 14:24, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

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(cur | prev) 2010-02-07T14:24:57 Sen Mcglinn (talk | contribs) (437 bytes) (needs disambiguation) (undo)
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Church of the Holy Family, Singapore

2011-08-20T16:18:00.000+01:00

Church of the Holy Family, Singapore

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (June 2007)
Holy Family Church
Church of the Holy Family
1°18′24.75″N 103°54′24.25″ECoordinates: 1°18′24.75″N 103°54′24.25″E
Country Singapore
Denomination Roman Catholic
Churchmanship Roman Rite
Membership 8,500[1][2]
Weekly attendance 7,200[1]
Website www.holyfamily.org.sg
History
Former name(s) Chapel of the Holy Family (1923–1931)[1]
Founded 1902[1]
Dedication Holy Family
Dedicated 1923-11-11
Consecrated 1932
Significant associated people James Leonard Scheerder
Architecture
Status Parish church
Functional status Active
Style Modern
Completed 1999
Specifications
Capacity 3,000 (2,400 seated, 600 standing)
Number of floors 4
Materials Concrete
Administration
Diocese Archdiocese of Singapore
Division East District
Clergy
Priest(s) Rev. Fr. Patrick Goh
Assistant priest Rev. Fr. Christopher Lee,
Rev. Fr. Ignatius Yeo
Laity
Music group(s) Genesis II Choir, St. Anne's Choir, Choir of St David, Kristokos Choir, St. Mary's Choir
Parish administrator Parish secretariat
Servers' guild Church of the Holy Family Altar Servers' Society

The Church of the Holy Family, also known as Holy Family Church and Katong Catholic Church, is a Roman Catholic church in the Archdiocese of Singapore. It is located at Chapel Road, Singapore, and has one of the largest parish populations in the archdiocese.
Contents

1 History
2 Organisation
3 Affiliations
4 Gallery
5 References
6 External links

[edit] 1 History

The church itself was founded in early 1902 by four Eurasian families living in Tanjong Katong. They purchased plots of land in the area, as did Mr James Leonard Scheerder, who developed a coconut plantation around Marine Parade, Chapel Road and East Coast Road. The De La Salle Brothers also bought a plot of land in the area, and is now occupied by St. Patrick's School. Mass was celebrated during the holidays in the buildings they owned along the East Coast, now developed into East Coast Park. The beginnings of its actual structure only came about shortly after World War I, when Reverend Father Pierre Raudel, the then-parish priest of the Cathedral of the Good Shepherd, approached Scheerder for the donation of some land in Katong to build a chapel for the growing Catholic community in the area. Mr Scheerder conceded to the request on the condition that the land was to be used for the chapel and to be returned to the donor's estate if it were not used by the chapel. Regardless, in 1922, the foundation stone of the chapel was laid. The chapel was completed and consecrated to the Holy Family by Bishop Marie-Luc-Alphonse-Emile Barillon on 11 November 1923. As the growing Catholic community had outgrown the small chapel, the chapel building was demolished in 1931, and while waiting for a new church building to be built, the community conducted their Sunday Mass in Roxy Theatre.
File:Oldholyfam.jpg
The old Holy Family Church (as it was called at that time). The file File:Oldholyfam.jpg has an uncertain copyright status and may be deleted. You can comment on its removal.

The full-sized Church of the Holy Family was eventually completed on 19 June 1932. It was blessed and consecrated by Bishop Perrichon. By 1936, the church was made a parish, its first parish priest being Pierre Ruaudel. In 1969, to better accommodate and service the increasing number of Catholics in the area, the church again underwent renovation and extension work which was completed by April 1970. The church hall featured a single large crucifix on a blank wall behind the altar, and this set-up was often decorated with paints, banners and other artwork, changing to appropriately suit the missal theme of the week. David Saul Marshall donated a piece of land to the church, but too late to build an extension upon, and so was then used as a carpark.

Eventually, the increasing numbers of worshippers again outgrew the church. Thus, it was again demolished in 29 December 1997 to make way for the current, larger, 4-storey church building. During this time, Sunday Masses were celebrated in the main hall of Saint Patrick's School while the Weekday masses are held in the school chapel. The new church was completed and consecrated in December 1999, just prior to the start of the second millennium. The car park is on the first floor has space for nearly 200 cars, although this is usually insufficient during most weekend sunset masses, forcing other parishioners to park on the roadside and cause obstructions. The church hall situated on the second and third storey and accommodates about 3,000 people (2,400 seated, 600 standing), although main masses of days of obligation usually pack the church hall with more parishioners. The centrepiece is the altar with a massive 16-panel stained glass above, depicting the Holy Family and 16 scenes from Jesus' life. The fourth storey houses the Holy Family Kindergarten, four classrooms, a choir room, and a large function room that can accommodate a few hundred people, serving as the canteen on Sundays. The Adoration Room and Our Lady's Grotto are located on the ground floor, and there is also an 2500-niche air-conditioned columbarium located in the basement. The roof of the church is shaped to simulate hands in prayer, pointing toward heaven. Apart from the main church building, there are also other buildings within the parish compound: the Fathers' House, Emmaus Centre and a third building simply called 3 Sea Avenue. 3 Sea Avenue was donated by a parishioner after his passing, as he had stated in his will to pass the deed of the building to the church.
[edit] 2 Organisation
The altar of the new Church of the Holy Family as seen from the third level of church building (also the second level of the church hall).

The church currently has 3 priests administering to a parish population of 8,500. These priests are:

Parish Priest Reverend Father Patrick Goh
Reverend Father Christopher Lee
Deacon Clement Chen

The church has the following ministries:

Formation Ministry
Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults (RCIA)
Catechists
Charismatic Group
Meditation Group
Liturgy Ministry
Altar Servers
Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion
Music Ministry (Choirs)
Genesis II Youth Choir (Saturday 6 pm mass)
St. Anne's Choir (Sunday 7:15 am mass)
Choir of St David (Sunday 9:15 am mass)
Kristokos Choir (Sunday 11:15 am mass)
St. Mary's Choir (Sunday 6 pm mass)
Lectors
Churchwardens
Youth Council
Service Ministry
Ministry of Sick
St. Vincent De Paul Society (SVDP)
Elders Group
Art and Environment
Canteen/Function Room
Bulletin

Legion of Mary
Missionary Ministry
Chinese Group
Filipino Group
Peranakan Group
Neighbourhood Small Christian Communities (SCC)
Bayshore
Bedok South
Cathay/Ocean Park/Stangee
Joo Chiat
Kew
Laguna
Lucky Heights/Sennett
Marine Crescent
Marine Drive
Marine Terrace
Neptune Court
Telok Kurau

[edit] 3 Affiliations

As a Roman Catholic church, the church is naturally affiliated with all other Roman Catholic schools, churches and organisations, particularly in Singapore. However, there are a few that share a markedly closer relationship because of their geographic closeness.

Saint Patrick's School
CHIJ (Katong) Primary School
CHIJ Katong Convent Secondary School
Canossa Convent Primary School
Saint Anthony's Canossian Secondary School
Church of Our Lady Queen of Peace (Singapore)
Church of Our Lady of Perpetual Succour (Singapore)

[edit] 4 Gallery

Backdrop of altar for Christmas in the old Holy Family Church.

Backdrop of altar for Good Friday in the old Holy Family Church.

Backdrop of altar in the old Holy Family Church.

Grotto of the old Holy Family Church.

Old Holy Family Church as seen from the main entrance.

Old Holy Family Church at night.

View of the altar from the northwest.

View of the altar from the northeast.

View of the 16-paneled stained glass window from the third level of church building.

The altar seen from the main door.

The statue of the Virgin Mary, sited in the grotto.

[edit] 5 References

^ a b c d "Church of the Holy Family".
^ "Singapore Catholic Church Information".

[edit] 6 External links

Church of the Holy Family website

This page was last modified on 2011-05-27 at 15:56:40.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply. See Terms of use for details.
Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., a non-profit organization.

Revision history of Church of the Holy Family, Singapore

(cur | prev) 2011-05-27T15:56:40 MZMcBride (talk | contribs) (10,878 bytes) (rm file) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-02-19T04:28:22 Ohconfucius (talk | contribs) m (10,950 bytes) (style fixes, including esp. rem überlinking using AWB) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-11-23T00:02:13 SoxBot (talk | contribs) (11,042 bytes) (BOT: tagging File:Oldholyfam.jpg as {{pufc}}) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-11-21T11:38:30 Luckas-bot (talk | contribs) m (10,996 bytes) (robot Adding: ru:Церковь Святого Семейства (Сингапур)) (undo)
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(cur | prev) 2010-08-18T09:35:07 UDeep (talk | contribs) m (10,912 bytes) (→History) (undo)
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(cur | prev) 2010-02-13T17:13:59 116.14.16.181 (talk) (10,762 bytes) (→Organisation) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-01-03T13:28:43 Ariedartin (talk | contribs) (10,756 bytes) (→Gallery: rm non-helpful images) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-01-03T13:26:38 Ariedartin (talk | contribs) (11,247 bytes) (→History) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-11-30T04:35:03 Full-date unlinking bot (talk | contribs) m (11,371 bytes) (Unlinking full-dates. Details here. Codes: BRreg(×3), ISO1(×1)) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-11-01T00:32:40 ZooFari (talk | contribs) (11,399 bytes) (Change infobox parameters per request using AWB) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-10-17T12:02:25 Andrew Kelly (talk | contribs) m (11,395 bytes) (Reverting coord edit, see request and discussion.) (undo)
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(cur | prev) 2009-06-03T14:58:05 Ariedartin (talk | contribs) m (11,395 bytes) (fix mysterious format break) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-06-03T14:42:35 Ariedartin (talk | contribs) (11,403 bytes) (updating infobox; rewriting lead) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-06-03T13:18:09 Debresser (talk | contribs) (9,933 bytes) (reffix) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-06-03T12:41:36 Ariedartin (talk | contribs) (9,932 bytes) (updating template; work in progress) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-06-03T12:12:37 Ariedartin (talk | contribs) (9,522 bytes) (→Organisation: fix template again) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-06-03T12:11:53 Ariedartin (talk | contribs) (9,507 bytes) (→Organisation: neater template) (undo)
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(cur | prev) 2009-06-03T12:10:09 Ariedartin (talk | contribs) (9,493 bytes) (→Organisation) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-06-03T12:09:10 Ariedartin (talk | contribs) m (9,494 bytes) (→Organisation: organisation into columns for neatness) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-05-19T16:59:52 Fayenatic london (talk | contribs) m (9,466 bytes) (Disambiguate Saint Patrick's School to Saint Patrick's School, Singapore using popups) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-05-19T14:21:36 ThaddeusB (talk | contribs) (9,432 bytes) (contest prod - this chruch seems to be notable as it has coverage in multiple RS - will address sourcing concerns ASAP) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-05-12T12:01:43 RadioFan (talk | contribs) (9,696 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-05-12T12:01:17 RadioFan (talk | contribs) (9,707 bytes) (Proposing article for deletion per WP:PROD. (TW)) (undo)
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(cur | prev) 2009-04-07T17:22:23 XLinkBot (talk | contribs) (9,430 bytes) (BOT--Reverting link addition(s) by Sharonlin1988 to revision 270214057 (http://www.youhf.wordpress.com)) (undo)
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(cur | prev) 2009-02-03T06:27:15 Billinghurst (talk | contribs) (9,425 bytes) (Fixing links to disambiguation pages & WP:CONTEXT using AWB) (undo)
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(cur | prev) 2008-09-26T10:40:40 Ariedartin (talk | contribs) (9,433 bytes) (→History) (undo)
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(cur | prev) 2008-09-04T19:30:31 Ariedartin (talk | contribs) (9,433 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-09-04T19:28:14 Ariedartin (talk | contribs) (9,427 bytes) (+coords) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-09-01T00:54:25 1oddbins1 (talk | contribs) m (9,386 bytes) (WikiCleaner 0.78 - Repairing link to disambiguation page - You can help! - church) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-02-20T02:56:55 Jacklee (talk | contribs) m (9,368 bytes) (Updated infobox template name) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2007-11-15T09:41:18 ImageRemovalBot (talk | contribs) (9,369 bytes) (Removing deleted image) (undo)
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(cur | prev) 2007-04-17T12:18:49 Ariedartin (talk | contribs) (8,394 bytes) (→Organisation) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2007-01-14T10:52:25 Dekimasu (talk | contribs) m (8,219 bytes) (Disambiguation, link to East Coast) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-11-28T04:29:00 Ariedartin (talk | contribs) (8,195 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-11-21T02:55:41 CmdrObot (talk | contribs) m (8,048 bytes) (sp (2): parishoners→parishioners) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-11-14T06:16:10 Hmains (talk | contribs) (8,046 bytes) (fix link, Replaced: [[World War 1 → [[World War I using [[Project:AWB|AWB]]) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-08-06T02:27:48 Mboverload (talk | contribs) (8,046 bytes) (RegExTypoFix Typos: accomodate → accommodate, using AWB) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-08-05T15:33:19 Ariedartin (talk | contribs) m (8,045 bytes) (moved Church of the Holy Family (Singapore) to Church of the Holy Family, Singapore: more appropriate name) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-08-01T10:14:34 *drew (talk | contribs) m (8,045 bytes) (rmv unrelated ext links) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-07-29T06:40:25 Korgath (talk | contribs) (8,200 bytes) (→External links) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-07-25T14:25:14 Ariedartin (talk | contribs) (8,199 bytes) (→External links: - adding link) (undo)
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(cur | prev) 2006-07-25T14:07:53 Ariedartin (talk | contribs) (8,119 bytes) (→Gallery: - adding pictures) (undo)
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(cur | prev) 2006-07-21T13:45:26 Bluebot (talk | contribs) (7,007 bytes) (fixing common header errors, per the MoS) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-07-19T14:36:49 Ariedartin (talk | contribs) m (7,005 bytes) (→Organisation: - relink) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-07-19T14:30:54 Ariedartin (talk | contribs) (6,992 bytes) (adding images to gallery) (undo)
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(cur | prev) 2006-07-18T16:19:22 Ariedartin (talk | contribs) m (6,435 bytes) (→Affiliations: - correcting links) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-07-18T16:18:16 Ariedartin (talk | contribs) (6,431 bytes) (→History: - adding content) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-07-17T12:14:55 Ariedartin (talk | contribs) (5,168 bytes) (adding content from an information board outside church.) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-07-14T14:59:47 Ariedartin (talk | contribs) (3,683 bytes) (undo)
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(cur | prev) 2006-06-14T17:40:18 Dark Tichondrias (talk | contribs) (3,225 bytes) (→History: fixed Eurasian disambigulation) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-06-13T19:13:23 SmackBot (talk | contribs) m (3,199 bytes) (Delink months and days of week &/or general fixes using AWB) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-06-09T14:20:56 Erebus555 (talk | contribs) m (3,202 bytes) (Spelling) (undo)
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(cur | prev) 2006-06-01T22:17:19 Kusma (talk | contribs) (1,844 bytes) (rm speedy, not necessary for single editor, see talk page) (undo)
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Talk:Church of the Holy Family, Singapore

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Proposed deletion This article was proposed for deletion by an editor in the past.

There's no need to delete. If we are to check the history of Church of the Holy Family, we can see that there isn't much of a history to start with - it's a pretty new article, and so far all the contributions were from a single person (er.. me, namely). I used the old title to link to a disambiguation page, which I created as well.--Ariedartin 16:43, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

The deletion is required for technical reason - to merge the page histories. Whether there is one contributor or many is not the problem. The copyright on Wikipedia requires that the history of each and every edit to be preserved even if it is just changing one letter. It is for copyright reason this has to be done. Kimchi.sg 16:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the single editor simply re-releases his text under the GFDL again at a different place. I think not history merging this is the less messy option here. Kusma (討論) 22:16, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1 Ar...diocese?

What's the spelling? Arcdiocese, ardiocese or archdiocese?--Tdxiang 08:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Archdiocese. Though archdiocese has a different meaning from diocese. Kimchi.sg 09:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2 Fair use rationale for Image:Holyfam.jpg
Nuvola apps important.svg

Image:Holyfam.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 12:13, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

This page was last modified on 2009-05-19 at 15:33:21.
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Revision history of Talk:Church of the Holy Family, Singapore

(cur | prev) 2009-05-19T15:33:21 ThaddeusB (talk | contribs) (3,322 bytes) (add {{Oldprodfull}} tag + wikiproject tag) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2007-11-07T12:13:37 BetacommandBot (talk | contribs) (3,277 bytes) (noting Image:Holyfam.jpg is about to be deleted WP:NONFREE) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2007-02-03T04:06:20 Vsion (talk | contribs) (1,563 bytes) (add SG-header using AWB) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-08-05T15:33:19 Ariedartin (talk | contribs) m (1,533 bytes) (moved Talk:Church of the Holy Family (Singapore) to Talk:Church of the Holy Family, Singapore: more appropriate name) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-06-27T09:32:04 Kimchi.sg (talk | contribs) (1,533 bytes) (reply) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-06-27T08:15:32 Tdxiang (talk | contribs) (1,368 bytes) (Spelling.) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-06-01T22:16:59 Kusma (talk | contribs) (1,108 bytes) (answer) (undo)
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The Drama of the Lost Disciples

2011-08-20T16:16:00.000+01:00

The Drama of the Lost Disciples

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The Drama of the Lost Disciples is a 1961 book by George Jowett, a former bodybuilder and fitness instructor, which purports to trace several of Christ's disciples and other associates, including Joseph of Arimathea, St. Paul, St. Simon, and even his mother Mary, to Britain, where they founded a Christian church which predates, and therefore has precedence over, the Roman Catholic Church. The book also espouses British Israelism, arguing that the Welsh and English are descended from the so-called "Lost tribes of Israel", and claiming that they preserved their genetic and religious purity more assiduously than the Jews. Theories based on Jowett's work are popular on the internet, and among British Israelites and adherents of the Christian Identity movement. The book is written in readable style. He cites classical historians, early church fathers, medieval and early modern writers, but many of these citations are distorted and inaccurate. However, the publishers of the 16th UK edition (July 2011) confirm they checked all Jowett's references.

[edit] 1 Examples of distortion of sources

Jowett claims that Julius Caesar, in his De Bello Gallico Book 4,[1] "refers in amazement to the number of populous cities, the architecture, universities of learning, the numerical population of England, and particularly to their religion with its belief in the immortality of the soul". While it is true that Caesar notes Britain's population and its status as a centre of druidical learning, and elsewhere in his commentaries notes the druids' belief in the immortality of the soul, he nowhere mentions British cities, architecture or universities.

He claims that "the early Christian and Roman records abound with the name and warrior fame of Arviragus" (supposedly a British Christian prince who led the defence against the Roman conquest), and quotes Satire IV of Juvenal as saying "Hath our great enemy Arviragus, the car borne British King, dropped from his battle throne?" as an example.[2] This cryptic mention, in a satirical poem about Roman social life, is the only mention of Arviragus's name in the entirety of classical literature, and all other known references to him are derivative of Geoffrey of Monmouth's 12th century Historia Regum Britanniae,[3] also an imaginative nationalist pseudohistory.

He claims that, of Caratacus's supposed "trial" before the emperor Claudius, "Tacitus tells us that his daughter Gladys refused to be separated from her father, though it was against the Roman law for a woman to enter the Senate..." Tacitus nowhere tells us any such thing. After Caratacus was pardoned, he claims "the famed Queen Agrippira (sic) rose from her dais, approaching the Pendragon, and his daughter Gladys, shaking hands with each according to the British fashion, then embracing them, according to the Roman." A footnote to this passage cites Tacitus's Annals 12.37,[4] which again says no such thing. He claims that Pomponia Graecina, the probably Christian wife of Aulus Plautius, was a Briton, also called "Gladys", citing Tacitus's Annals 13.32[5] in support of this assertion; Tacitus does mention Pomponia, and the fact that she was accused of "foreign superstition", but nowhere does he call her "Gladys" or claim she was British.

On other occasions he will put a passage in quotation marks, but not cite its provenance. Where he does cite sources, as shown above, he can often be demonstrated to be taking liberties with them. On other occasions his citations are more reliable, although his sources may not be.

He regularly cites the Annales Ecclesiastici of Caesar Baronius, the 16th century church historian. On one occasion he directly quotes him, regarding Joseph of Arimathea's journey, as saying, under the year AD 35, "In that year the party mentioned was exposed to the sea in a vessel without sails or oars. The vessel drifted finally to Marseilles and they were saved. From Marseilles Joseph and his company passed into Britain and after preaching the gospel there, died." This is not quite a direct quotation from the Annales Ecclesiastici, and is mis-cited. A passage found under AD 35, translated into English, reads:

"In this dispersion, Ananias, having set out from Damascus gathered together a company of believers. At the same time, as one can ascertain, Lazarus, Mary Magdalene, Martha and Marcella whom the Jews regarded with great hatred, were not exactly driven away from Jerusalem but, together with the disciple Maximinus, were placed in a boat without oars and were believed to have perished in dangerous seas. By Divine providence they are said to have been driven to Marseilles. Taking with them a friend, Joseph of Arimathea, a noble decurion, they are said to have travelled from Gaul to Britain and there he proclaimed the gospel till his last day..."[6] This passage can be read in Latin in the British Library in London.

It is also sourced by Ludovicus Guérin, the editor of the Annales, to the Acta Magalenae,[7] an 11th century piece of ecclesiastical propaganda.[8]
[edit] 2 References

^ Julius Caesar, De Bello Gallico Book IV
^ Juvenal, Satire IV, .126-127
^ Geoffrey of Monmouth, Historia Regum Britanniae 4.12-17
^ Tacitus, Annals 12:37
^ Tacitus, Annals 13:32
^ Ludovicus Guérin (ed), Caesaris Barionii Annales Ecclesiastici, 1864, Vol 1, AD 35 paragraph 5, p. 208
^ op. cit. footnote 3
^ Hans Lewy, "Imaginary Journeys from Palestine to France", Journal of the Warburg Institute Vol. 1, No. 3, 1938, pp. 251-253

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(cur | prev) 2011-08-04T09:26:20 Nicknack009 (talk | contribs) (6,926 bytes) (AfD: Nominated for deletion; see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Drama of the Lost Disciples) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-07-30T11:30:25 Michael Anthony Clark (talk | contribs) m (6,514 bytes) (16th UK Editon (July 2011); 'AD 36' corrected to 'AD 35' Edit by Chairman of the publisher) (undo)
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(cur | prev) 2010-02-25T21:33:48 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) (6,255 bytes) (The availability of the AD 35 quotation in Latin in the British Library in London) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-25T21:24:46 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) m (6,191 bytes) (Two tribes formed the Kingdom of Judah whereas the Ten Tribes formed the Kingdom of Israel who became 'lost' to secular history. The book written in romantic style is anything but a 'pious fraud') (undo)
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(cur | prev) 2010-02-20T00:03:21 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) m (6,489 bytes) ('romantic fraud' for 'pious fraud'; 'are elaborated upon' for 'deliberate distortions' to provide more balance and omit liabllous accusations) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-11T15:54:17 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) m (6,495 bytes) (Redirection to the year AD 35 in "Annales Ecclesiastici'' for the relevant quotation; tribute to Baronius; publishers remarks on 16th Edition) (undo)
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Talk:The Drama of the Lost Disciples

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This article is full of weasle words and sounds like orginal research. Which modern scholar is refuting this Jowett?

~~

I wondered when someone would try this tactic. If checking citations is "original research", then what's the point of including them? Jowett's book is demostrably riddled with falsehoods, and if you want to claim that pointing out those falsehoods is invalid, then I have to wonder about your motivations. --Nicknack009 17:49, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reverted new additions

I have changed and/or removed most of the edits by Michael A Clark.

Making up things and attributing them to ancient sources is not "elaborating upon" them, it's dishonest.
A Claudia and a Linus are mentioned in II Timothy. The idea that Claudia was also called "Gladys" and that she and Linus were the children of Caratacus in exile in Rome is not in II Timothy, nor in any other source. It is made up. The first bishop of Rome after Paul is indeed said to have been called Linus, but it is far from certain he was the same Linus as in II Timothy, if he even existed. II Timothy is also widely considered to be a fake.
The Catholic Encyclopedia's opinion of Baronius is a meaningless appeal to authority.
I've also removed weasel words that are designed to obscure the essentially fraudulent nature of the book.--Irishcomics (talk) 22:31, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

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Christian-New Age dialogue

2011-08-20T16:09:00.000+01:00

Christian-New Age dialogue

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New Agers, many of whom had grown up as Christians, rejected that religion as a spirit-stifling relic of a bygone era. Instead, they tried to celebrate alternative ideas, some of which are based on ancient teachings, while others are founded on contemporary paradigms, ranging from New Physics to ufology.

Even today, some Christians refer to the New Age Movement as “simply a re-packaging of Satanic beliefs.[1] Others assert that “The concepts of the New Age Movement are not new — they are based on ancient erroneous beliefs about God, man and the world.”[2] On the other hand, many New Age proponents still question the necessity or desirability of a male god.[3] One group of alternative seekers who refer to themselves as “Millennials” say, “Religion is losing us because it invokes disagreement and violence…”[4]

“Dialogue” can be defined as a “conversation” or “exchange of ideas … with a view to reaching an amicable agreement.”[5] According to others, it also denotes a “communication” or a “search for truth.”[6]

Some have noted that “ours is a culture largely frustrated with the prevailing religious establishment….”.[citation needed] Catherine Groves, editor of Christian*New Age Quarterly, refers not only to those seeking alternative spiritual paths, but also to Christians who desire a deeper meaning within their own religion. She suggests “vying to better oneself at the expense of the whole is recognized … as an abysmal way to interact in an ever shrinking, endangered world.”[7] Thus, the “ever shrinking world” needs, according to Groves, a population committed to dialogue, to an understanding and appreciation of the other.

Another aspect of dialogue is presented by Robert Arias, a research neurophysiologist, who writes that the Western and Eastern ideas of spirituality “stand in striking contrast” to each other. However, he observes that each works using a specific area of the brain. The “left hemisphere contains the centers for verbal reasoning and analytical thought…,” relating to a regulated spiritual belief. The right hemisphere “is responsible for intuitive thought … fitting together of separate things into coherent patterns,” relating to a more inclusive spiritual belief.[8]

Perhaps therapist/case manager Sally Nulph offers a basis for dialogue when she writes, “A spiritual path should be clear and unified.... If a Christian or a New Age follower seeks to find their greatest peace, they need to constantly assess where their path is taking them.”[9]

Others advance this thought. Lutheran theologian Ted Peters writes of the Graduate Theological Union (GTU), a scholastic center originally intended to bring different factions of Christianity together for “interdenominational cooperation.” Later, the GTU expanded to include other theologies such as Judaism and Buddhism. Peters observes, “It is this combination of authentic traditions that gives the ecumenical mix its tensive and exciting flavor.” He further speaks of our world being “in reality pluralistic; so I for one could not conceive of an adequate theological education that does not reflect this undeniable reality.”[10]

Another voice for the importance of dialogue is Christian*New Age Quarterly: A bridge supporting dialogue (Founded in 1989).[11] Peters adds, “Groves can speak of ‘two frameworks of exchange…,” thus creating “a mood of ‘both/and’ to replace ‘either/or’ thinking.”[12]
[edit] 1 References

^ http://lightingthewayworldwide.org.
^ http://bibleprobe.com
^ “Why is God Male?: Thealogy — The Politics and Sociology of Religion and Abrahamic Hypermasculinity,” http://kwelos.tripod.com/thealogy.htm.
^ “Millennial Generation Spirituality,” http://www.grapethinking.com/millennial-generation-spirituality.
^ The Random House Dictionary of the English Language (New York: Random House, 1967).
^ J. I. Rodale, The Synonym Finder (New York: Warner Books, 1978).
^ Catherine Groves, “The Small Magazine at the Forefront of Religious Change,” The Small Magazine Review 1:7 (December 1993).
^ Robert Arias, research neurophysiologist and author in the field of spirituality, “The Complementarity of Opposites,” Christian*New Age Quarterly 18:4 (June 2008-February 2009).
^ Sally Nulph, therapist/case manager, Newaygo Mental Health, Greater Grand Rapids, MI, “Are Christian and New Age Beliefs Compatible?” Pagewise (2002).
^ Rev. Dr. Theodore Peters, professor of systematic theology, Pacific Lutheran Seminary and Graduate Theological Union, Berkeley, The Cosmic Self: A Penetrating Look at Today’s New Age Movement, (San Francisco: HarperSanFrancisco, 1991).
^ Christian*New Age Quarterly: A bridge supporting dialogue, Catherine Groves, editor, P.O. Box 276, Clifton, NJ 07015-0276, http://www.christiannewage.com.
^ The Cosmic Self: “Positive yet nonsyncretistic assessments of the new age on the part of Christians are rare. One example, however, is the Christian*New Age Quarterly, edited by Catherine Groves. Groves can speak of ‘two frameworks of exchange,’ of ‘Christian-New Age friction’ and of ‘dialogue.’ What she favors is a mood of ‘both/and’ to replace ‘either/or’ thinking. Copies of the quarterly can be obtained from Christian*New Age Quarterly, P.O. Box 276, Clifton, NJ 07015-0276,” p. 208.

[edit] 2 Bibliography

Arias, Robert. "The Complementarity of Opposites." Christian*New Age Quarterly 18:4 (June 2008-February 2009). http://www.christiannewage.com.
Bible Probe for Christians and Messianic Jews. http://bibleprobe.com.
Christian*New Age Quarterly: A bridge supporting dialogue. P.O. Box 276, Clifton, NJ 07015-0276. http://www.christiannewage.com.
Groves, Catherine. “The Small Magazine at the Forefront of Religious Change.” The Small Magazine Review 1:7 (December 1993).
Lighting the Way Worldwide: Telling the World About Jesus. http://lightingthewayworldwide.org.
“Millennial Generation Spirituality.” http://www.grapethinking.com/millennial-generation-spirituality.
Nulph, Sally. “Are Christian and New Age Beliefs Compatible?” Pagewise (2002).
Peters, Theodore. The Cosmic Self: A Penetrating Look at Today’s New Age Movement. San Francisco: HarperSanFrancisco, 1991.
“Why is God Male?: Thealogy — The Politics and Sociology of Religion and Abrahamic Hypermasculinity.” posted by Mu. http://kwelos.tripod.com/thealogy.htm.

[edit] 3 See also

Landaiche, Nemour. "Proposing a Bridge When the Other Sees No Divide." Christian*New Age Quarterly (January–March 1996).

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Talk:Christian-New Age dialogue

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Today (August 14, 2011) I noticed that this page is up for deletion -- and I can't for the life of me imagine why.

Though I'm quite familiar with both the terms "Christian" and "New Age", I'm not a practicing "Christian" -- nor am I much of an adherent of "new age" principles. That said, however, I find any discourse of the two subjects fascinating and invigorating to my spirit and intellect. Similar to political discussions that can be anywhere from far right to far left, open discussion of the theories involved help all parties come to their own personal feelings about the issues involved. Knowledge, after all, is power.

My own spiritual practices are more of an amalgamation of various spiritual practices with a dash of free-will thrown into the mix. This is why I'm SO fascinated with any discussions between folks of different faiths, beliefs, and paths. Without lively discussion, how can people come to their own conclusions -- conclusions which, as a result of the discourse, may be moved along into new depths of richness and knowing?

I sincerely hope that Wikipedia will allow this page to remain -- thereby encouraging a (possibly lively) discussion between folks interesting in both Christian and New Age dialogues.

Thanks for your own input! That's what it's all about!

Michael Walker Washington, DC http://dreamwalkergroup.com

This page was last modified on 2011-08-14 at 15:46:54.
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Revision history of Talk:Christian-New Age dialogue

(cur | prev) 2011-08-14T15:46:54 98.218.227.45 (talk) (1,362 bytes) (Added homepage.) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-14T15:44:16 98.218.227.45 (talk) (1,334 bytes) (Starting open Christian-New Age dialog.)

Gateway Church (Australia)

2011-08-20T16:06:00.000+01:00

Gateway Church (Australia)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is being considered for deletion in accordance with Wikipedia's deletion policy.
Please share your thoughts on the matter at this article's entry on the Articles for deletion page.
Feel free to edit the article, but the article must not be blanked, and this notice must not be removed, until the discussion is closed. For more information, particularly on merging or moving the article during the discussion, read the Guide to deletion.
This article is written like an advertisement. Please help rewrite this article from a neutral point of view. For blatant advertising that would require a fundamental rewrite to become encyclopedic, use {{db-spam}} to mark for speedy deletion. (July 2011)
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For the church in the USA with the same name, see Gateway Church (Texas).
Gateway Church (Australia)
Website http://www.gateway.asn.au

Gateway Church - also known as Gateway Family Church, is a contemporary Christian community on the Mornington Peninsula, Victoria, Australia.[1] Their purpose statement is "Taking hold of the real life that Jesus gives, we grow people with a passionate concern for our world." The church is involved in community development in Papua New Guinea, where it has also started four churches.
Contents

1 History
2 Melbourne, Australia
2.1 Community involvement
2.2 Weekend services
2.3 Conferences
2.4 Podcast
2.5 Property & future plans
3 Papua New Guinea
3.1 Community development
3.2 Raising awareness & support
4 References
5 External links

[edit] 1 History

Gateway began with 24 people in 1986 as a "church plant" from the Pines Forest Baptist church.The original pastor became ill shortly after services commenced. In his absence Rick Paynter took charge of this new church.

Gateway grew from a home church and occupied many venues as the church developed. Gateway is currently in the process of developing a new site at 107 Seaford Place that they intend to occupy for the foreseeable future[2]. They are affiliated with the Baptist Union of Australia.[3]

The church started in Langwarrin, and then moved to Frankston. They have recently purchased a factory in Seaford and currently have plans for a 400 seat auditorium and various other refurbishments.[4]
[edit] 2 Melbourne, Australia

Gateway says their aim is to be open to those who are genuinely seeking spiritual answers. They use modern music, drama & theatre, dance, film and other creative arts to create a "contemporary style of ministry".[5][6][7]
[edit] 2.1 Community involvement

Gateway runs sporting and recreational activities [8][9] with the Victorian Government's 'Go For Your Life' program.[10][11] This includes the Gateway Basketball Association [12] with +500 players, 4WD trips, fishing trips, golf tournaments and weekend events. In 2008 a swimmer from Gateway - Ellie Cole, represented Australia in the 2008 Paralympic Games.[13] The sports and recreation ministries have struggled when the enthusiastic but frustrated Murray Holmes left to start his own church "Liquid".

Gateway has performed theatre productions since about 1995. In 2005, they performed Bye Bye Birdie jointly with staff and students from Elisabeth Murdoch College. In 2008 the church made its home in the Frankston Village Theatre complex, hosting the musicals within the meeting space.[14] The opening theatre production was entitled "Pirates of the Peninsula".

Gateway is involved in community festivals around Frankston.[15] They assist the key organiser of the Frankston Good Friday March and Family Fun Day,[16] as well as contributing to the Frankston Festival of Lights.[17]

To provide nationally recognised courses in Business and Management, a Life Training Institute began in 2006.[18]
[edit] 2.2 Weekend services

During Sunday services, crèche and primary school age children attend Godzone. Gateway Youth run mid-week activities, with an annual summer camp called Camp No Fear attracting about 250 youth. During the week Gateway runs playgroups for pre-schoolers.[19]
[edit] 2.3 Conferences

Gateway ran a 'Connecting Conference' about starting new churches for several years, the most recent being in 2005 and held at Mount Eliza Business School [1]. Since 2007 they have co-organised the annual "Unite Creative Arts Conference" with Crossway Baptist Church, Christian City Church (Whitehorse) and Careforce Church [20]

Since 1998 the largest group of delegates to the Hillsong Conference has come from Gateway, with +560 delegates in 2009.This large group is made up of people from over 30 different non Gateway churches and includes individuals from New Zealand and South Africa. Des and Brenda Deacon have co-ordinated this large group of delegates for 20+ years. The growth can be attributed to their exceptional organisational management and networking skills. The Deacons have retired from organising this event following the 2010 event. Gatways recognises their dedication and hard work as the major factor in the churches biggest annual event.

In 2009 they ran a PNG Conference in Mt Hagen. Delegates attended from each of the 4 Gateway PNG Churches and Melbourne.
[edit] 2.4 Podcast

Gateway Youth began podcasting monthly events in August 2008. Itunes recorded an annual +15,000 downloads.
[edit] 2.5 Property & future plans

Gateway Church in Melbourne planned to build and manage its own LIFE centre. They had plans to develop a worship and performing arts theatre, conference centre, and other community facilities - located on a 60-acre (24 ha) campus in Baxter, Victoria known as “Carrup Carrup” by the traditional Australian Aboriginal owners. This translates to 'highland on the marshes'. The land was originally owned by Benjamin Baxter, and his original cottage is still preserved on the land.

Gateway received a planning permit to build on the land from the Victorian Government, but this was revoked after the Melbourne 2030 Green Wedge Policy was legislated. After following many possible leads to complete their vision, the decision was made to maintain Carrup Carrup as the church offices but to seek a new home for the offices and Sunday worship in a single building. In 2010 a building was purchased at 107 Seaford Place, Seaford - funded by the sale of Carrup Carrup. Prayer vigils are being held to ensure that this new purchase can be turned into a place of worship unlike the failed attempt at Carrup Carrup, leaving EMC, being kicked out of the BEC and being "homeless" until the generosity of Pastor Mark of Jubilee agreed to a shared building arrangement.

Gateway moved its offices to the new location in February 2011 and plans to convert a manufacturing area into a +400 seat auditorium along with various other refurbishments to facilitate their day to day activities effectively. Renovations will begin some time in 2011 for completion by 2012.
[edit] 3 Papua New Guinea

Gateway has started 4 churches in Papua New Guinea - in Boroko (2004) and Moitaka (2007) in Port Moresby, as well as in the highland towns of Goroko (2006) and Lay (2008).
[edit] 3.1 Community development

After 15 years working in PNG communities, a partnership was launched between Australian and Papua New Guinea Gateway Churches - and Compassion Australia in 2007 called the 'Gateway Children’s Fund'.[21]

The Fund is a multi-level Child Development Project aimed at releasing children from poverty in PNG. It primarily focusses on the needs of the whole child through provision of better education, nutrition, health care, clean water, and Christian discipleship. Since the Fund’s launch in June 2007, it has raised over A$200,000 for the relief of poverty in slum settlements in Port Moresby suburbs of Boroko and Moitaka. With the recent endorsement of PNG’s Community Services Minister, Dame Carol Kidu, The Gateway Children’s Fund plans to develop in places where Gateway is planting churches, like the highland town of Goroka and Lae. Following the sucess of the Papua New Guinea mission. Gateway is set to launch a similar program in their own backyard. They are also considering a mission to aboriginal settlements in outback Australia.
[edit] 3.2 Raising awareness & support

In 2008 Gateway launched Vada Cafe,[22] which seeks to provide funds for the Gateway Children's Fund and create awareness of the poverty in Papua New Guinea. The cafe has Fairtrade certification by the Fair Trade Association of Australia and New Zealand. Vada Cafe is situated in Frankston central on Nepean Highway.

In 2009 Vada Cafe was nominated as one of Melbourne's top 100 Cafe's, by the Melbourne Coffee Review.
[edit] 4 References

^ http://www.frankston.net/churchest.htm
^ http://www.frankston.net/churchest.htm
^ http://www.buv.com.au/AboutUs/OurChurches.aspx[dead link]
^ Morris, Mike (2011-02-01). "Frankston Council gives Gateway church nod". Frankston Weekly. Retrieved 2011-08-17.
^ Frankston Council Press Report http://www.frankston.vic.gov.au/Newsroom/2007/May/Gateway_Festival_To_Explore_The_Spirit/indexdl_4811.aspx
^ http://www.frankston.vic.gov.au/library/scripts/objectifyMedia.aspx?file=pdf/47/03.pdf&str_title=01.pdf[dead link]
^ Frankston Leader newspaper http://frankston-leader.whereilive.com.au/news/story/frankston-festival-lights-the-way-to-christmas/
^ Editorial from Frankston Independent newspaper: "Women Run the Boards" 23 January 2007
^ http://www.frankston.vic.gov.au/Arts_Events_and_Leisure/Calendar/2007/October/Gateway_Mixed_Basketball_Tournament/indexdl_5699.aspx[dead link]
^ http://www.goforyourlife.vic.gov.au/hav/directory.nsf/pages/Gateway_Family_Church?open[dead link]
^ http://www.asf.org.au/information/index/newsletters/new_newsletter
^ http://www.prowess.com.au/co_web/gateway/[dead link]
^ "Next stop is Beijing" Frankston Independent, 8 April 2008
^ staff (2008-04-21). "New life for old cinema in Frankston". Frankston Standard Leader. Retrieved 2011-08-17.
^ Frankston Council Press Report http://www.frankston.vic.gov.au/Newsroom/2008/March/Easter_Entertainment_at_the_Waterfront/indexdl_6982.aspx[dead link]
^ Frankston Council Press Report http://www.frankston.vic.gov.au/Arts_Events_and_Leisure/Calendar/2009/April/Good_Friday_March_and_Family_Fun_Day/indexdl_9564.aspx[dead link]
^ Frankston Council Press Report http://www.frankston.vic.gov.au/Events_-_Whats_On/Major_Events/Frankstons_Christmas_Festival_of_Lights/Program_Main_Stage/index.aspx
^ http://gateway.asn.au/your-church/gateway-life-training-institute.html
^ http://www.morningtonpeninsula.com.au/directory/schools-further-education-courses/playgroups/gateway-family-church[dead link]
^ Australian Christian Channel News Article http://www.acctv.com.au/articledetail.asp?id=5839[dead link]
^ http://childrensfund.org.au/
^ http://vadacafe.com.au/

[edit] 5 External links

Gateway website
Frankston Visitor Information Centre

Coordinates: 38°8′33″S 145°7′30″E

This page was last modified on 2011-08-17 at 05:59:01

Revision history of Gateway Church (Australia)

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Talk:Gateway Church (Australia)

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[edit] 1 Neutrality

On 5 December 2009, this page was flagged for neutrality. On 12th December, a significant re-editing was taken. After this the neutrality sign was removed.--Lskil09 (talk) 16:23, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

On 25 August 2010, the page was again found to be written with a clear negative bias and was re-written to provide a factual, unbiased article. --Singe.gill (talk) 11:15, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
[edit] 2 Encyclopedic significance vs neutrality

I refer to the suggestion that this page has been nominated for deletion. The primary issue with this article as stands is that it contains a fair bit of unreferenced material. Since wikipedia is an encyclopedia, it should primarily contain externally referenced information.

I recommend this page for a re-edit, but certainly not a deletion. There is certainly enough references to news articles to verify the substantiality of the existence of this page. However a fair degree of the information probably just needs to be more concise.

--74.250.3.121 (talk) 01:27, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

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Revision history of Talk:Gateway Church (Australia)

(cur | prev) 2011-08-16T01:27:07 74.250.3.121 (talk) (1,317 bytes) (re: nomination for deletion) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-02T14:01:44 Lithistman (talk | contribs) m (612 bytes) (moved Talk:Gateway Church to Talk:Gateway Church (Australia): This church is no more notable than the one in Texas. Also, there are other potentially notable "Gateway" churches, making this a better landing place for this article.) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-10-01T21:49:48 John Carter (talk | contribs) m (612 bytes) (C class for Christianity) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-08-25T01:05:03 Singe.gill (talk | contribs) (496 bytes) (→Neutrality) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-12-12T16:23:06 Lskil09 (talk | contribs) (258 bytes) (re-editing for neutrality)

Catholic Public Domain Version

2011-08-20T16:00:00.000+01:00

Catholic Public Domain Version

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Please share your thoughts on the matter at this article's entry on the Articles for deletion page.
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Catholic Public Domain Version
Full name: Catholic Public Domain Version
Abbreviation: CPDV
Complete Bible published: 100% complete, March 28th, 2009
Textual basis: Sixtus V and Clement VIII Latin Vulgate
Translation type: modern
Copyright status: Public domain (copyright waived)
Online address: http://www.sacredbible.org/
Genesis 1:1-3

In the beginning, God created heaven and earth. But the earth was empty and unoccupied, and darknesses were over the face of the abyss; and so the Spirit of God was brought over the waters. And God said, "Let there be light." And light became.

Genesis 1:1 in other translations
John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that all who believe in him may not perish, but may have eternal life.

John 3:16 in other translations
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The Catholic Public Domain Version (CPDV), is an English translation of the Bible from the Latin Vulgate, prepared and edited by Catholic writer Ronald L. Conte Jr.. The translator used the Challoner Douay-Rheims version as a guide in translating the Latin Vulgate edition of Popes Sixtus V and Clement VIII. This translation is published together with the Latin Vulgate text, translation notes, and commentary.

The CPDV is published without ecclesiastical approval and hence has not obtained official recognition as a Catholic version of Sacred Scripture. It has no Imprimatur. Canon 825 of the Roman Catholic Code of Canon Law provides:

§1. Books of the sacred scriptures cannot be published unless the Apostolic See or the conference of bishops has approved them. For the publication of their translations into the vernacular, it is also required that they be approved by the same authority and provided with necessary and sufficient annotations.

[edit] External links

Official site

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(cur | prev) 2011-08-16T00:21:14 Chonak (talk | contribs) (2,409 bytes) (AfD: Nominated for deletion; see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Catholic Public Domain Version (2nd nomination)) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-15T09:23:30 Good Olfactory (talk | contribs) (2,143 bytes) (added Category:2009 in religion using HotCat) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-17T11:15:32 86.164.66.52 (talk) (2,113 bytes) (Added that it has no Imprimatur, wikilinked.) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-10-13T16:13:45 Mclay1 (talk | contribs) m (2,088 bytes) (Adding category Category:2009 books (using HotCat)) (undo)
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(cur | prev) 2009-07-28T11:11:58 Cavila (talk | contribs) m (1,976 bytes) (Removed category Bible versions and translations; Quick-adding category English Bible translations (using HotCat)) (undo)
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(cur | prev) 2009-04-06T18:05:26 Chonak (talk | contribs) (1,950 bytes) (tidy up; add wikilinks; stick to facts. Is this one-man project notable?) (undo)
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Talk:Catholic Public Domain Version

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[edit] Vatican has only 4 years left?

A quote from a CPDV page ([1]):" Having a Bible version controlled by the Holy See would be a significant advantage over the current situation, where the liberal USCCB controls the NAB version, and Protestant groups control numerous other versions (even the RSV Catholic Edition), and secular for-profit corporations own the copyright on the Jerusalem and New Jerusalem Bibles.

But the Church is about to pass through a time of great suffering. And the City of the Vatican will be destroyed in July of 2013. So it may be some time before the Holy See has Bible versions in various languages over which it has the primary responsibility for editing and maintaining."

Huh? Vatican destroyed? :-S —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.182.115.194 (talk) 18:40, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I've encountered this person on other parts of the Internet. Has this curious property of considering themselves devoutly Catholic while also apparently feeling that the entire Catholic Church is corrupt and stupid, and should do things their way. They had been informed before publishing this Bible that they needed to get a Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, etc, before their translation could be considered even a non-corrupt guide to Scripture for a Catholic, let alone become the primary English text, as they clearly want. Still they went ahead and published without, apparently, even trying to get it approved. It doesn't really surprise me to see them also stating various interpretations of prophecy as fact.
Readers may enjoy looking at Prophecy of the Popes and Three secrets of Fatima. 86.164.66.52 (talk) 12:02, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

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Revision history of Talk:Catholic Public Domain Version

(cur | prev) 2011-06-17T12:02:41 86.164.66.52 (talk) (2,086 bytes) (→Vatican has only 4 years left?) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-04-06T18:41:41 SineBot (talk | contribs) m (1,156 bytes) (Signing comment by 81.182.115.194 - "") (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-04-06T18:40:15 81.182.115.194 (talk) (856 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-05-20T16:20:55 GRBerry (talk | contribs) m (64 bytes) (bible project also) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-05-20T16:20:01 GRBerry (talk | contribs) (54 bytes) (christianity wikiproject, stub, catholicism)

Versification

2011-06-30T21:16:00.000+01:00

Versification (Bible)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (June 2011)
Merge-arrow.svg
It has been suggested that this article or section be merged into Chapters and verses of the Bible. (Discuss) Proposed since June 2011.
For other uses, see Versification.

Versification is the process by which a text such as the Bible is divided into chapters and verses. The Bible was originally written without these, and thus versification forms part of the Bible's paratext.
[edit] 1 History

The verses in the Hebrew Bible were added by the Masoretes, while verse numbering came later when Robert Estienne introduced them into his 1551 edition of the Greek New Testament and then into his French translation of the whole Bible.
[edit] 2 Implications

Versification makes particular sections of the Bible easier to find and to memorise. The arbitrary division of the new testament into verses in the 16th century is sometimes mistakenly interpreted as if the placement of this verse numbering system were equivalent to a placement of logical pauses (commas) or full stops (periods).
[edit] 3 External links

Alternate Versification – CrossWire Bible Society wiki

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Talk:Versification (Bible)

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[edit] Proposed merger

I don't see the point of this page, and therefore propose that it be merged and redirected to Chapters and verses of the Bible. The external link currently provided does not serve as a citation for the page content, and is itself so arcane and technical that it is unlikely to help most readers. Therefore "forms part of the Bible's paratext" may be the only bit worth merging. - Fayenatic (talk) 19:56, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Merge: In looking at the history of this article, my guess is that original wiki editor was not aware of Chapters and Verses of the Bible. Whilst the two topics do refer to different things, given the history of both articles, I doubt either will be developed well enough for the general reader to grok the difference between the two topics. p (talk) 18:13, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes Done The original version did include a link to that page. I guess this page was created for the purpose of disambiguation; if so, a redirect achieves that. - Fayenatic (talk) 14:17, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

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Chapters and Verses in the Bible

2011-06-30T21:13:00.003+01:00

{{mergefrom|Versification (Bible)|date=June 2011|discuss=Talk:Versification (Bible)}}
{{Bible related}}

Versification is the process by which a text such as the Bible is divided into chapters and verses. The Bible was originally written without these, and thus versification forms part of the Bible's paratext.

=== Versification Schemes===

Each [[Biblical Canon]] includes a different set of [[books of the Bible|books]] of the [[Bible]]. How these books are named, and numbered, depends upon the specific Canon, and, consequently, versification scheme that is used.

that are considered [[Biblical canon|canonical]] number 24 for [[Judaism|Jews]], 66 for [[Protestantism|Protestants]], 73 for [[Roman Catholic Church|Catholics]], and 78 for most [[Orthodox Christianity|Orthodox]] Christians. The Jewish [[Tanakh#Books of the Tanakh|Tanakh]] matches the text recognised by Protestants as the [[Old Testament]], but the latter counts the twelve minor prophets as being twelve separate books instead of one book; divides Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles into two parts instead of one book each; and maintains separate books for Ezra and Nehemiah, which are together in the traditional Tanakh numbering. Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches also recognise certain [[deuterocanonical books]] as part of the [[Biblical canon]]. In addition to these, many [[translations of the Bible|versions of the Bible]] contain books which have not necessarily been considered canonical by their publishers, called [[Biblical apocrypha|apocrypha]]. All these books vary in length from a single page of modern type to dozens of pages. All but the shortest are divided into [[chapter (books)|chapter]]s, generally a page or so in length.

Each is further divided into verses of a few short lines or sentences - sometimes a sentence spans more than one verse, as in the case of {{bibleref|Ephesians|2:8-9|KJV}} - and sometimes there is more than one sentence in a single verse, as in the case of {{bibleref|Genesis|1:2|KJV}}. ''Pasuk'' (plural ''pesukim'') is the Hebrew term for verse.

The [[Tanakh#Chapters and verse numbers, book divisions|Jewish divisions of the Hebrew text]] differ at various points from those used by Christians. For instance, in Jewish tradition, the ascriptions to many [[Psalms]] are regarded as independent verses, making 116 more verses, whereas the established Christian practice is to count and number each Psalm ascription together with the first verse following it. Some chapter divisions also occur in different places, e.g. {{bibleverse|1|Chronicles|5:27-41|HE}} in Hebrew Bibles is numbered as {{bibleverse|1|Chronicles|6:1-15|NIV}} in Christian translations.

==History==
===Chapters===
The original Hebrew manuscripts did not contain the chapter and verse divisions in the numbered form familiar to modern readers. Some portions of the original texts were logically divided into parts following the [[Hebrew alphabet]]{{Citation needed|date=June 2011}}; for instance, the earliest known copies of the [[book of Isaiah]] use Hebrew letters for paragraph divisions. (This was different from the [[acrostic]] structure of certain texts following the Hebrew alphabet, such as Psalm 119 and most of the [[book of Lamentations]].) There are other divisions from various sources which are different from what we use today.

The [[Hebrew Bible]] began to be put into sections before the [[Babylonian Captivity]] (586 BC){{Citation needed|date=May 2011}} with the [[Torah|five books of Moses]] being put into a 154-section reading program to be used in a three-year cycle. Later (before 536 BC{{Citation needed|date=May 2011}}) the Law was put into [[Parsha|54 sections and 669 sub-divisions for reading]].

By the time of the [[First Council of Nicaea|Council of Nicaea]] in 325 AD, the New Testament had been divided into paragraphs, although the divisions were different from the modern Bible.

An important canon of the New Testament was proclaimed by [[Pope Damasus I]] in the Roman synod of 374. Pope Damasus also induced [[Jerome]], a priest from Antioch, to undertake his famous translation of the entire Bible, both Old and New Testaments, from [[Hebrew language|Hebrew]] and [[Greek (language)|Greek]] into [[Latin]], the official language of the [[Roman Empire]] at the time. This translation is known as the [[Vulgate]]. The Church continued to finance the very expensive process of copying and providing copies of the Bible to local churches and communities from that point up to and beyond the invention of the printing press, which greatly reduced the cost of producing copies of the Scriptures.

Churchmen Archbishop [[Stephen Langton]] and Cardinal [[Hugo de Sancto Caro]] determined different schemas for systematic division of the Bible in the early 13th century. It is the system of Archbishop Langton on which the modern chapter divisions are based.[http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07175a.htm Hebrew Bible] article in the ''[[Catholic Encyclopedia]]''.

===Verses===

It is presently unknown how early the Hebrew verse divisions were incorporated into the books that comprise the [[Biblical canon]].{{Citation needed|date=June 2011}} However, it is beyond dispute that for at least a thousand years the [[Tanakh]] has contained an extensive system of multiple levels of section, paragraph, and phrasal divisions that were indicated in [[Masoretic]] vocalization and cantillation markings. One of the most frequent of these was a special type of punctuation, the ''sof passuq'', symbol for a full stop or sentence break, resembling the colon mark (:) of English and Latin orthography. With the advent of the printing press and the translation of the [[Bible]] into English, Old Testament versifications were made that correspond predominantly with the existing Hebrew full stops, with a few isolated exceptions. A product of meticulous labour and unwearying attention, the Old Testament verse divisions stand today in essentially the same places as they have been passed down since antiquity. Most attribute these to Rabbi [[Isaac Nathan ben Kalonymus]]'s work for the first Hebrew [[Bible concordance]] around 1440.Moore, G.F. [http://www.jstor.org/pss/3259119 The Vulgate Chapters and Numbered Verses in the Hebrew Bible] at [[JSTOR]].

The first person to divide New Testament chapters into verses was Italian Dominican biblical scholar [[Santi Pagnini]] (1470–1541), but his system was never widely adopted.{{cite book|title=The Bible: A History|author=Miller, Stephen M., Huber, Robert V.|year=2004|publisher=Good Books|isbn=1561484148|page=173}} [[Robert Estienne]] created an alternate numbering in his 1551 edition of the Greek New Testament [http://www.biblestudymagazine.com/interactive/chaptersverses/ "Chapters and Verses: Who Needs Them?,"] Christopher R. Smith, Bible Study Magazine (July-Aug 2009): 46-47., which was also used in his 1553 publication of the Bible in French.

The first English New Testament to use the verse divisions was a 1557 translation by [[William Whittingham]] (c. 1524-1579).
The first Bible in English to use both chapters and verses was the [[Geneva Bible]] published shortly afterwards in 1560. These verse divisions soon gained acceptance as a standard way to notate verses, and have since been used in nearly all English Bibles.

==Jewish tradition==

The [[Hebrew language|Hebrew]] [[Masoretic text]] of the Bible notes several different kinds of subdivisions within the biblical books:

===Verse endings===

Most importantly are the verse endings. According to the [[Talmud]]ic tradition, the division of the text into verses is of ancient origin. In masoretic versions of the Bible, the end of a verse is indicated by a small mark in its final word called a ''silluq'' (which means "stop"). Less formally, verse endings are usually also indicated by a two horizontal dots following the word with a ''silluq''.

===Parashot===

{{main|Parashah}}

The Masoretic textual tradition also contains section endings called ''[[Parashah|parashot]]'', which are usually indicated by a space within a line (a "closed" section) or a new line beginning (an "open" section). The division of the text reflected in the ''parashot'' is usually thematic. Unlike chapters the ''parashot'' are not numbered, but some of them have special titles.

In early manuscripts (most importantly in [[Tiberian vocalization|Tiberian]] Masoretic manuscripts, such as the [[Aleppo codex]]) an "open" section may also be represented by a blank line, and a "closed" section by a new line that is slightly indented (the preceding line may also not be full). These latter conventions are no longer used in Torah scrolls and printed [[Hebrew Bible]]s. In this system the one rule differentiating "open" and "closed" sections is that "open" sections must ''always'' begin at the beginning of a new line, while "closed" sections ''never'' start at the beginning of a new line.

===Sedarim===

Another division of the biblical books found in the masoretic text is the division of the ''[[Seder|sedarim]]''. This division is not thematic, but is almost entirely based upon the ''quantity'' of text. For the [[Torah]], this division reflects the triennial cycle of reading that was practiced by the Jews of Babylon.

===Absence of chapters===

The current division of the Bible into chapters and the verse numbers within the chapters has no basis in any ancient textual tradition.{{Citation needed|date=June 2011}} Rather, they are medieval Christian inventions. They were later adopted by many Jews as well, as technical references within the Hebrew text. Such technical references became crucial to medieval rabbis in the historical context of forced debates with Christian clergy (who used the chapter and verse numbers), especially in late medieval Spain.See [[Spanish Inquisition]].

The earliest extant Jewish manuscript to note the chapter divisions dates from 1330, and the first printed edition was in 1516 (several earlier masoretic Bibles did not note the chapters).

Since then, all printed Hebrew Bibles note the chapter and verse numbers out of practical necessity. However, ever since the 1961 [[Koren Publishers Jerusalem|Koren]] edition, most Jewish editions of the Bible have made a systematic effort to relegate chapter and verse numbers to the margins of the text, as an indication that they are foreign to the masoretic tradition.

==Christian versions==

The Byzantines also introduced a form of chapter division, called ''kephalaia'' (literally meaning ''headings''). It is not identical to the present chapters. Unlike the modern chapters, which tend to be of roughly similar length, the ''kephalaia'' divisions varied greatly in length both within a book (the [[Sermon on the Mount]], comprising three chapters in the modern system, was but one ''kephalaion'', while the modern chapter 8 of the [[Gospel of Matthew]] was divided into several ''kephalaia'') and from one book to the next (there were far fewer ''kephalaia'' in the [[Gospel of John]] than in the [[Gospel of Mark]], even though the latter is the shorter text).

Cardinal [[Hugh of St Cher|Hugo de Sancto Caro]] is often given credit for first dividing the [[Latin Vulgate]] into chapters, but it is the arrangement of his contemporary and fellow cardinal [[Stephen Langton]] who in 1205 created the chapter divisions which are used today. They were then inserted into Greek manuscripts of the New Testament in the 15th century. [[Robert Estienne]] (Robert Stephanus) was the first to number the verses within each chapter, his verse numbers entering printed editions in 1551 (New Testament) and 1571 (Hebrew Bible).[http://www.theexaminer.org/history/chap6.htm The Examiner].

The division of the Bible into chapters and verses has often elicited severe criticism from traditionalists and modern scholars alike. Critics charge that the text is often divided into chapters in an incoherent way, or at inappropriate rhetorical points, and that it encourages citing passages out of context, in effect turning the Bible into a kind of textual quarry for clerical citations. The arbitrary division of the new testament into verses in the 16th century is sometimes mistakenly interpreted as if the placement of this verse numbering system were equivalent to a placement of logical pauses (commas) or full stops (periods). Nevertheless, the chapter divisions and verse numbers have become indispensable as technical references for Bible study.

==Statistics==
Except where stated, the following apply to the [[King James Version]] of the Bible in its modern Protestant form, including the New Testament but not the [[Deuterocanonical books]]. The number of words can vary depending upon aspects, such as whether the Hebrew alphabet in Psalm 119 or the superscriptions listed in some of the Psalms and New Testament are included.
;Chapters
* There are 929 chapters in the [[Old Testament]] and 260 chapters in the [[New Testament]]. This gives a total of 1,189 chapters (on average, 18 per book).
* {{bibleverse||Psalm|117|HE}} is the middle chapter of the Bible, being the 595th Chapter.[http://www.breakthechain.org/exclusives/midbible.html The Center of the Bible] at BreakTheChain.org
* Psalm 117 is also the shortest chapter of the Bible.
* {{bibleverse||Psalm|119|HE}} is the longest chapter of the Bible.
;Verses
* There are 23,145 verses in the Old Testament and 7,957 verses in the New Testament. This gives a total of 31,102 verses,[http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/misc/66books.html Number of chapters and verses in each book] at BlueLetterBible.org which is an average of a little more than 26 verses per chapter.
* Contrary to popular belief, Psalm 118 does not contain the middle verse of the Bible. The King James Version has an even number of verses (31,102), with the two middle verses being {{bibleverse||Psalm|103:1-2|HE}}.[http://www.biblebelievers.com/believers-org/kjv-stats.html King James Bible Statistics] at BibleBelievers.com
* {{bibleverse|1|Chronicles|1:25|HE}} ("Eber, Peleg, Reu") is the shortest verse in the Old Testament.
* The shortest verse in the [[Novum Testamentum Graece|Greek New Testament]] is {{bibleverse||Luke|20:30}} ("και ο δευτερος", "And the second") with twelve letters, according to the [[The New Testament in the Original Greek|Westcott and Hort]] text. In the [[Textus Receptus]], the shortest verse is {{bibleverse|1|Thessalonians|5:16}} ("παντοτε χαιρετε", "Rejoice always") with fourteen letters,[http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=5585 First Thessalonians 5:12-28], [[John Walvoord]] at Bible.org since [[Robert Estienne|Stephanus]]' rendering of Luke 20:30 includes some additional words.[http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2020:30&version=TR1550;WHNU Luke 20:30], in the 1550 [[Robert Estienne|Stephanus]] New Testament and the 1881 [[The New Testament in the Original Greek|Westcott-Hort]] New Testament.
* {{bibleref|Isaiah|10:8}} ("''Dicet enim''") is the shortest verse in the Latin [[Vulgate]].[http://www.latinvulgate.com/verse.aspx?t=0&b=27&c=10 Isaias 10] at LatinVulgate.com
* {{bibleref|John|11:35}} ("[[Jesus wept]]") is the shortest verse in most English translations. Some translations — including the New International Version, New Living Translation, New Life Version, Holman Christian Standard Bible and New International Reader's Version — render {{bibleverse||Job|3:2|HE}} as "He said". However, this is a translators' condensation of the Hebrew which literally translated is "And Job answered and said."
* {{bibleverse||Esther|8:9|HE}} is the longest verse in the Masoretic Text. The discovery of several manuscripts at [[Qumran]] (in the [[Dead Sea Scrolls]]) has reopened what is considered the most original text of 1 Samuel 11; if one believes that those manuscripts better preserve the text, several verses in 1 Samuel 11 surpass Esther 8:9 in length.

* Using numbers of pages in the CUV/ESV Bible, the New Testament comprises 22.7% of the Bible.

==See also==
* [[List of omitted Bible verses]]
* [[Parashah]]

==References==
{{Reflist}}

==External links==
*[http://www.crosswire.org/bsisg/download.htm STEP Documentation]
*[http://www.ccel.org/refsys/refsys.html OSIS Documentation]
*[http://www.crosswire.org/wiki/Alternate_Versification Alternate Versification]

{{Books of the Bible}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Chapters And Verses Of The Bible}}
[[Category:Bible chapters| ]]
[[Category:Bible verses| ]]

[[de:Vers (Bibel)]]
[[fr:Versets]]
[[is:Biblíuvers]]
[[he:חלוקת הפרקים בתנ"ך]]
[[simple:Chapters and verses of the Bible]]
[[fi:Raamatun luvut ja jakeet]]
[[zh:圣经章节]]

Beach Blondes

2011-06-14T16:57:00.000+01:00

Beach Blondes

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Beach Blondes: June Dreams, July's Promise, August Magic is a 2008 novel by Katherine Applegate.
[edit] 1 Synopsis

Summer Smith is in for the best summer of her life. Between the cold weather and her boyfriendless existence in Minnesota, Summer is ready for sun, sand, and boys in the Florida Keys. And by the end of the first day, she has more than enough to keep her busy: Adam, the senator's son, has looks, power, and all the money in the world; Diver, the mystery man, is mellow, intriguing, and definitely unique; and Seth, the perfect guy...only he has a girlfriend. But with new friends, cute guys, and miles of hot white sand, Summer's in for more trouble than she thinks.
[edit] 2 Characters

Summer Smith-A nice 16 year old from Bloomington, Minnesota.

Mallory Olan- Summer's aunt. Mallory is a famous,romance novelist, and spends a lot of time on tour.

Diana Olan-Mallory's daughter and Summer's cousin. Diana's dark and withdrawn exterior often pushes others away from her.

Jonathan Smith- Summer's brother who disappeared when he was two, just before she was born. He was never found.

Mr. and Mrs. Smith- Summer's parents. They have never recovered from the loss of their son.

Adam Merrick- The son of a Senator who dates Summer and is Diana's old boyfriend.

Diver- The mysterious guy who shares the stilt house with Summer. Philosophical and sweet, Diver refuses to date because he says girls mess with his wa.

Seth- Summer's perfect guy...except for the fact that he's not available.

Lianne- Seth's former girlfriend who is not too happy about their breakup and his relationship with Summer.

JT- The cook at the Crab 'n Conch, and Marquez's former boyfriend.

Marquez- Summer's friend on the island, who gets her a job at the Crab 'n Conch. Marquez is a great artist, but insists she wants to be a lawyer.

Sean Valetti- Summer's crush from back home.

Ross Merrick- Adam's brother, died, attempted rape of summer & Diana
[edit] 3 References

Amazon: Beach Blondes: June Dreams, July's Promise, August Magic

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Origin of Urdu words

2011-06-14T16:25:00.000+01:00

Origin of Urdu words

(Redirected from List of Urdu words and their origin)
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Contents

1 Origin of Urdu words
2 Examples of Urdu words, Origin and Meanings
3 References
4 External links

[edit] 1 Origin of Urdu words

The article explains the origin of the Urdu words. Nearly 80% of Urdu words derive directly from Arabic words. Urdu words derive primarily from the holy Quran, Arabic words in their original form and meanings are often adopted directly into Urdu with little or no change to the original form of the word.
[edit] 2 Examples of Urdu words, Origin and Meanings
Urdu Origin Meaning
Sahi Arabic Sah Correct
Ghalat Arabic Ghalat Wrong
Hukumat Arabic Hakim Rule
Mauth Arabic Mauth Death
Dunya Arabic Dunya World
Aakhir Arabic Aakhir Last/Final
Insaaniyyat Arabic Insaan Humanity/Civility
Insaan Arabic Insaan Man/Human Being/Mankind
Aksar Arabic Frequently/Usually/Generally/Often
Imtihaan Arabic Examination/Test/Trial
Inaam Arabic Gift/Reward
Aulaad Arabic plural of Walad Children
Imaan Arabic Imaan Belief/Faith/Creed/Conscience
Badla Arabic Badal Exchange/Change/Substitution
Tamaam Arabic Tamaam Entire/Complete/Perfect
[edit] 3 References

[1]

^ http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?254965-LIST-urdu-words-with-arabic-origin

[edit] 4 External links

[1]

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Talk:Géa

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Contents

1 Twice the lexicon of William Shakespeare
2 Contested deletion
3 Contested deletion
4 Contested deletion
5 Contested deletion

[edit] 1 Twice the lexicon of William Shakespeare

Cláudio César Dias Baptista, in opus Géa, has twice the lexicon of William Shakespeare's whole opera. That information could be seen in the page Cláudio César Dias Baptista but was deleted by Antiuser, with nonsense allegations and the page was semi-protected. You can see proof about Shakespeare's lexicon in the enter "Léxicon" of the Dicionário Aurélio and in the own book that is mentioned in that enter. Of course you can also discover by yourself how many words William Shakespeare utilized in his whole opera and compare it with the vocabulary present in Géa! Then you will see the Truth by yourself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.13.6.117 (talk) 12:34, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
[edit] 2 Contested deletion

This page should not be speedy deleted because I ask you the following: *For your meditation, Administrators of English Wikipedia. I know the En Wiki has rules. These rules are valuable and the fruit of long-term work of its members, without forgetting its founders, Jimmy Wales and Larry Sanger. Herself Wikipedia and every page that it contains have behind its creation and its existence the human impulse to friendship, excitement, enthusiasm. Who would create a page to present something that is not emotional, not something to which this value (and value is the result of emotion, not only reason)? Who would create a virtual encyclopedia without this magnificent engine that is the emotion? So if there is a page Cláudio César Dias Baptista and a page Géa on En Wiki, that's because there is enough emotion in people who created those pages; It's because that emotion and reason and objectivity emerged and turned the pages into reality. For the same reason, emotion, friendship, people find themselves inducted as members of the En Wiki devoted admiration and respect for Cláudio César Dias Baptista and his work, both as a specialist in audio and as a writer of Géa and several other books. These people, in launching these pages and their reasons for their entries here to ask for not deletion are not a 'party' politics, have no commercial interest or personal, but have that emotion and friendship and the respect and admiration for the writer and the work. For all that I ask the respected members of the Administration of English Wikipedia, the ones who will reach the consensus on whether or not erase the pages Cláudio César Dias Baptista and Géa, that meditate upon this modest paragraph, also the result of emotion, to consult their souls and their reasons for everything they do - and if they feel and conclude the same that I, do not delete these pages, which only bring the Good and the Information, besides being a milestone in the En Wiki, with this discussion in favor of Emotion and Friendship, and this does not violate the En Wiki Rules and the Reason. --187.13.81.213 (talk) 11:48, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
[edit] 3 Contested deletion

This page should not be speedy deleted because there is no commercial interest in it and because the book is extremelly relevant and have good references and sources. The following sources are not in the own page Géa:

This article shows the proof that the name Géa exists in printed books and also shows one of the starting points of the book Géa. The article also shows the dedicated work of the author Cláudio César Dias Baptista, his attention for the persons who payed nothing more than the cost of the artisanal printing of the technical book and his dedication for his friends. The article was posted by Professor Júlio Martins and the following link I extracted from his defense of page Cláudio César Dias Baptista against deletion in En Wiki: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B4Imqu0xjVLqMDYzM2I1NjctMDEzNC00ZGY0LThmNjgtMTYyNWFiZGU2YmQy&hl=pt_BR

Please see also this articles from tradicional and well known audio magazines in Brazil. The articles are one of the proofs of the notability of Cláudio César Dias Baptista, author of Géa, here proposed for deletion.

From Backstage magazine, Nº8 (1995) - The hidden face of Mutantes (original title in portuguese: A Face oculta dos Mutantes)

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B4Imqu0xjVLqZTQyMTdkZGYtOWYxMy00ZjQ2LWI5MzUtMGRiZjdiMGQwMjRm&hl=pt_BR

From Backstage magazine, Nº 27 (1997) - An audio Luthier ( Orig. title in portuguese: Um luthier de áudio)

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B4Imqu0xjVLqNGZiYTkwYWMtNTQxYi00MGI5LTg5MDQtZmZlNzUxMGE4YmU4&hl=pt_BR

Música & tecnologia - ed. 28 [1991] - Cover history (Mr. Baptista appears with innovative 12 channel mixer with a size of a4 paper format totally conceived and designed in CADD).

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B4Imqu0xjVLqNjM0YWEyMDQtNTVhOS00ODNhLWJkYzQtNjdiNDU1YzU2MzZj&hl=pt_BR -- --187.13.81.133 (talk) 12:23, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

[edit] 4 Contested deletion

This page should not be speedy deleted because the page is semi-protected and it's impossible to improve it, as it's suggested in the 'Rescue' tag, same page!

How to improve an article which is semi-protected?. There is a new tag in the page Géa proposing its rescue. That tag suggests to improve the article. When I was trying to include the new strong refferences I just find in the above entering from another IP, I discovered that the page cannot be edit; so, cannot be improved, at least by me, who am not member of En Wiki. What can I do to improve the page, which I think is very good, or what can En Wiki members with access to the page do to improve it with the above references? Thank you in advance for what you may do!187.13.107.90 (talk) 12:34, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

[edit] 5 Contested deletion

This page should not be speedy deleted because Claudio César is an author that is not supported by traditional publishers and has a great contribution to culture, philosophy and science. As a free encyclopedia, I understand Wikipedia as the right space for Géa at the www. Marcelo M. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marmachster (talk • contribs) 14:14, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
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AfD/PROD Discussion
20 Géa

Géa (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)
(Find sources: "Géa" – news · books · scholar · free images)

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Related to the AfD for the author Cláudio César Dias Baptista. This book does not appear to meet WP:N. While the Portuguese language sources are a little hard to sort out, none appear to be significant coverage. Daniel 15:36, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

The article Géa and the page Cláudio César Dias Baptista which En Wiki members considered at first good to be published here are suffering a political attack from the En Wiki member named Antiuser.Cláudio César Dias Baptista (talk) 16:03, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment: All I did was remove a piece of original research from the article. The matter is being discussed at WP:AN/I#WikiHounding / Article ownership issues / Possible IP socks. XXX antiuser eh? 16:30, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

delete It's very long, but that doesn't convey notability and not much else is seeming to. Besides, any book with a technicolour fractal on the cover and that isn't by Mandelbrot or similar should be burned. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:04, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Anyone who says that any book should be burned should be burned him/herself.187.14.113.31 (talk) 16:17, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Please cool down, Andy was making a joke. I'm sure he didn't mean that the book should actually be burned, just that the cover was not to his taste. --Daniel 16:31, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

No, I've read the whole article now. BURN! Andy Dingley (talk) 17:08, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

As you see, dear Daniel, Andy is insisting in his childishness. You have a clearer mind, please read again the article and consider the sources mentioned there as the importance they really have in Brazil and Portuguese language countries. The book is great, I've read it! You can read it too, in www.ccdb.gea.nom.br, as I see by your phrase 'Portuguese language sources are a little hard to sort out'; so, you can read Portuguese to judge the quality of these sources and, so, you can also read the book! If you like Portuguese language, you will love to read the book as I did and, perhaps, as myself, learn a lot of that great language - there is no better source today, and the book Géa includes a thousand page dictionary also delightful to people who love Portuguese language. If not by the language, the lexicon twice William Shakespeare, you may be perhaps enchanted with the histories inside the twelve volumes of the book. Regards187.14.112.27 (talk) 17:43, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. — • Gene93k (talk) 01:28, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Delete - On the Portuguese Wikipedia, there is an article for the author, but even there, not for the book. The sources are just not robust enough to support a separate article for the book. Also, the article text is really fails to establish why the book is notable, other than opinion and plot summary. jsfouche ☽☾Talk 01:49, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Do not delete - Let's be rational and cool, analyzing the page. Here are the positive points: The author invested more than ten years of his life in writting a book, moreover, a twelve 250 pages volume book. The author composed a 1,000 pages dictionary to complement the book. The author utilized a lexicon twice the William Shakespeare lexicon in his whole opera and six times the lexicon of Camões in "Os Lusíadas". The author created a new language with extra words, doesn't matter if it's named an 'extraterrestrial language' or not. The author illustrated himself the twelve volumes with more than 700 3D pictures, so, he had to learn 3D Computer Graphics to do these illustrations and also the thirteen covers for Géa. The author studied programming languages for computer to create himself the active pages in a site also created by himself to publish himself the book. The author applied his audio experience to perfection the sound of the reading. The author wrote also metrified poems inside the book. The author of Géa composed music for the book. The author proposed complete inventions in the books which could work if tested in laboratory. The author abandoned his profitable carreer in audio to write the book. The author created more than one thousand characters for the book. The description of these characters is interesting in the page Géa. The author presented a Theory, the 'biorrelatividade' in the book. The stories presented in the page are captivating for people who has the habit of reading books - at least they captivate myself. The quantity of references is more than enough and the quality of some of these references is unquestionable, as it's the case of the reporting in Jornal da Tarde, in the Revista Trip (very important in Brazil). And here are the negative points: The book is written in Portuguese, not yet translated to English; Brazil is not England nor USA; people who see the page Géa here in En Wiki can't easily judge the merit of the book because they can't read it. Now I ask myself: Are those negative poits really negative? Is not perhaps an injustice being done against a perhaps great work as it was done also against Don Quixote of Miguel de Cervantes and so many great books which were recognized long time after their writting? Or as the pictures of Vincent van Gogh, who sold only one of them during his life and which were recognized so late? If you search En Wiki for pages about other books, you will see that very few, if any, has the merits I mentioned above for the book Géa. So, I am forced to conclude that the cause of the deletion proposal is not the lack of importance of the opus, but another unknown cause, external to the page itself. And I don't want to be one of the persons who will be remembered as the ones who deleted the page of a book that shows everything to be perhaps recognized as a great work. I vote for the permanence of the page in En Géa in En Wiki.William T. Johannes (talk) 02:53, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

' The author invested more than ten years of his life in writting a book '
That's his problem. Did anyone pay heed to the end result? That's ours. Andy Dingley (talk) 08:04, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Note: I have blocked user:William T. Johannes as a checkuser-confirmed sockpuppet of user:Cláudio César Dias Baptista. JohnCD (talk) 19:17, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Let the page complete during its judgement! I noted that this Antiuser is removing important information from the page Géa during its period of judgement for deletion. That's not a good policy. I would kindly suggest that the page is semi-protected in its complete form during that period. How can people judge the merit of a page which content is being reduced? That procedure is not what I understand as Justice nor what I understand as En Wiki policy.187.13.17.74 (talk) 03:14, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Do not delete, please - I would ask them not delete nothing in the text. If it is a text that talks about a book or author is a way to have thorough research on it.I read the book Géa and I found everything the article written here on En Wiki informs thus removing some of the text as it would erase part of the book and the story of the author. Any of you ever read a book and thought the best part of the book, the pages are blank? That's what I imagine to deleting some of the text that refers to something, like we're erasing part of it. I ask you to please leave the full text of Géa, otherwise they will be erasing part of the book, not just the description, for future readers may not know what the book actually contains. 201.75.82.71 (talk) 13:38, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Delete per WP:N. The attempts to establish notability demonstrate the lack of it. NebY (talk) 16:56, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Do not delete. The attempts to estabilish notability demonstrate that it is real.187.13.68.58 (talk) 17:18, 11 June 2011 (UTC) — 187.13.68.58 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

WP:ITEXISTS is a very poor argument for keeping, and one that makes no demonstration of notability whatsoever. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 07:29, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Do not delete!. Well, that is a big disrespect to Brazilian literature. You guys are not talking about a mere book of 10 pages written "yesterday", but an entire collection, which took 10 years to writes it. It is a richly detailed stories, never told by no one else! GEA is a series of books with differentiated and intelligent language, which is not found in any other book in Brazil. I believe GEA is part of the highest Brazilian literature, it is very important to all Brazilians. Likalileal (talk) 14:47, 12 June 2011 (UTC) — Likalileal (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Delete: no indication that this topic meets WP:NBOOK. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 07:27, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Do not delete Aren't 'third party sources' the persons who support here the page Géa? Aren't these third party sources (those persons) presenting other third party sources, as is the case of Professor Júlio Martins Jcms1506br, with his brilliant and rich comments and references in the page Cláudio César Dias Baptista also proposed for deletion, where he present the origin of book Géa and the third party references about the quality of that book? The fact is that there is a cruzade against a notable Brazilian, moved by another Brazilian, Mr. Antiuser. The page Géa present much more than the minimum references required by En Wiki, and the majority of these references are strong and notable. There are pages in En Wiki about persons who did nothing for the world, as for example some that you may find via Baronetage of the United Kingdom page. And there are pages about musicians, for example Túlio Mourão who were not more than hired persons in the Os Mutantes group and with only one (!) reference, only one external link (!) who nobody proposed for deletion. Cláudio César Dias Baptista was the founder of Os Mutantes group, was the person because of whom that group reached international renown, the page of his name is extremelly complete in references... but is being proposed for deletion, not only the page of his name but also the page of his main work, Géa. Why? Without him, there would never exist Os Mutantes and much less Túlio Mourão would have a page here in En Wiki. I can see only one reason: Cyberbulling, envy, people trying to make name at the expense of his illustrious name. So, although this page is not a place for voting but for consensus, I 'vote' for do not delete. 187.13.81.213 (talk) 11:55, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Do not make pointless irrelevant rants: I did not mention "third party sources" and you made no response to my point that THERE IS NO INDICATION THAT THE TOPIC MEETS WP:NBOOKS. So your comment is a complete non sequitor (as well as raising no issue relevant to this AfD). HrafnTalkStalk(P) 12:05, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

For your meditation, Administrators of English Wikipedia. I know the En Wiki has rules. These rules are valuable and the fruit of long-term work of its members, without forgetting its founders, Jimmy Wales and Larry Sanger. Herself Wikipedia and every page that it contains have behind its creation and its existence the human impulse to friendship, excitement, enthusiasm. Who would create a page to present something that is not emotional, not something to which this value (and value is the result of emotion, not only reason)? Who would create a virtual encyclopedia without this magnificent engine that is the emotion? So if there is a page Cláudio César Dias Baptista and a page Géa on En Wiki, that's because there is enough emotion in people who created those pages; It's because that emotion and reason and objectivity emerged and turned the pages into reality. For the same reason, emotion, friendship, people find themselves inducted as members of the En Wiki devoted admiration and respect for Cláudio César Dias Baptista and his work, both as a specialist in audio and as a writer of Géa and several other books. These people, in launching these pages and their reasons for their entries here to ask for not deletion are not a 'party' politics, have no commercial interest or personal, but have that emotion and friendship and the respect and admiration for the writer and the work. For all that I ask the respected members of the Administration of English Wikipedia, the ones who will reach the consensus on whether or not erase the pages Cláudio César Dias Baptista and Géa, that meditate upon this modest paragraph, also the result of emotion, to consult their souls and their reasons for everything they do - and if they feel and conclude the same that I, do not delete these pages, which only bring the Good and the Information, besides being a milestone in the En Wiki, with this discussion in favor of Emotion and Friendship, and this does not violate the En Wiki Rules and the Reason. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.13.81.213 (talk) 11:49, 14 June 2011 (UTC) — 187.13.81.213 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

This article shows the proof that the name Géa exists in printed books and also shows one of the starting points of the book Géa. The article also shows the dedicated work of the author Cláudio César Dias Baptista, his attention for the persons who payed nothing more than the cost of the artisanal printing of the technical book and his dedication for his friends. The article was posted by Professor Júlio Martins and the following link I extracted from his defense of page Cláudio César Dias Baptista against deletion in En Wiki: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B4Imqu0xjVLqMDYzM2I1NjctMDEzNC00ZGY0LThmNjgtMTYyNWFiZGU2YmQy&hl=pt_BR

Please see also this articles from tradicional and well known audio magazines in Brazil. The articles are one of the proofs of the notability of Cláudio César Dias Baptista, author of Géa, here proposed for deletion.

From Backstage magazine, Nº8 (1995) - The hidden face of Mutantes (original title in portuguese: A Face oculta dos Mutantes)

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B4Imqu0xjVLqZTQyMTdkZGYtOWYxMy00ZjQ2LWI5MzUtMGRiZjdiMGQwMjRm&hl=pt_BR

From Backstage magazine, Nº 27 (1997) - An audio Luthier ( Orig. title in portuguese: Um luthier de áudio)

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B4Imqu0xjVLqNGZiYTkwYWMtNTQxYi00MGI5LTg5MDQtZmZlNzUxMGE4YmU4&hl=pt_BR

Música & tecnologia - ed. 28 [1991] - Cover history (Mr. Baptista appears with innovative 12 channel mixer with a size of a4 paper format totally conceived and designed in CADD).

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B4Imqu0xjVLqNjM0YWEyMDQtNTVhOS00ODNhLWJkYzQtNjdiNDU1YzU2MzZj&hl=pt_BR -- 187.13.81.133 (talk) 12:16, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

How to improve an article which is semi-protected?. There is a new tag in the page Géa proposing its rescue. That tag suggests to improve the article. When I was trying to include the new strong refferences I just find in the above entering from another IP, I discovered that the page cannot be edit; so, cannot be improved, at least by me, who am not member of En Wiki. What can I do to improve the page, which I think is very good, or what can En Wiki members with access to the page do to improve it with the above references? Thank you in advance for what you may do! 187.13.107.90 (talk) 12:29, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Don't even think about it!

2011-06-14T15:55:00.000+01:00

Don't even think about it!

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is being considered for deletion in accordance with Wikipedia's deletion policy.
Please share your thoughts on the matter at this article's entry on the Articles for deletion page.
Feel free to edit the article, but the article must not be blanked, and this notice must not be removed, until the discussion is closed. For more information, particularly on merging or moving the article during the discussion, read the Guide to deletion.

"Don't even think about it!" is an emphatic prohibition[1] popularized by a 1993 Pepsi commercial featuring Shaquille O'Neal, a famous basketball player.
Contents

1 History
2 Popularization
3 Cultural references
4 References
5 See also
6 Further reading

[edit] 1 History
A "Don't even THINK of parking here" sign in New York City

The catchphrase as used by the Pepsi ad was based upon a similar phrase, "Don't even THINK of parking here", which came into use on no parking signs in major cities such as New York City and Chicago.[2][3] The signs first appeared in New York in 1982 during Ed Koch's mayoral administration.[4][5]
[edit] 2 Popularization

The 1993 commercial featuring O'Neal begins with him playing hoops at a street basketball court. A little kid notices him, and exclaims O'Neal's nickname, "Shaq". O'Neal, noticing that the kid has a Pepsi in his hand, walks over and says "Hey, can I have it?" He bends over, supposing that his admirer will give him the soda, but the kid refuses, saying: "Don't even think about it!" Suddenly, a sound simulating that of a scratched record is heard, and the commercial ends with the Pepsi logo and slogan.

The commercial is actually a parody of another famous one from the 1970s produced by Pepsi's rival, Coca-Cola, in which a young boy meets football player "Mean" Joe Greene as he is leaving the field after a game. The boy gives his hero a bottle of Coke and, in exchange for the drink, the football player throws his towel to the boy, who excitedly catches the souvenir.
[edit] 3 Cultural references

The phrase also appears in series 4, episode 5 of Men Behaving Badly, when a drunken Gary climbs into bed intent on having sex with the sleeping Dorothy; it is revealed that she is wearing a T-shirt with "Don't even think about it!" written on it in large letters. The phrase was also used as the title of a 2004 book by Lauren Henderson.[6]
[edit] 4 References

^ Bruce K. Waltke. "The Book of Proverbs: Chapters 15-31". p. 265.
^ E.J. Dionne (August 16, 1998). No Go. The Washington Post.
^ "13 Ways to Get Message on Parking". Chicago Tribune. Associated Press: p. 4. March 5, 1987. Retrieved January 1, 2011.
^ Ari L. Goldman (June 15, 1982). "Bus-Only Lanes to be Increased to Speed Travel". The New York Times: section A, p. 1.
^ Clyde Haberman and Laurie Johnston (September 4, 1982). "New York Day by Day". The New York Times: section 1, p. 24.
^ Lauren Henderson (2004). Don't Even Think About It. Downtown Press. ISBN 0743464699.

[edit] 5 See also

Parking violation

[edit] 6 Further reading

Paul Trapido, Barbara Ensor (1986). Don't Even Think of Parking Here: The New York City Guide to Parking and Driving. Simon & Schuster. ISBN 0671628369.

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(cur | prev) 2011-06-10T17:49:19 Anthem of joy (talk | contribs) (4,028 bytes) (Nominated for deletion; see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Don't even think about it! (2nd nomination). (TW)) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-02-17T18:54:29 Dreadstar (talk | contribs) m (3,755 bytes) (Reverted edits by 204.174.87.29 (talk) to last version by Kfranco) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-02-13T22:39:44 204.174.87.29 (talk) (3,756 bytes) (catchphrase -> catch phrase) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-01-05T05:59:52 Kfranco (talk | contribs) m (3,755 bytes) (→History: A word change (from "variant" to "similar") and removed an unneeded "the".) (undo)
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(cur | prev) 2011-01-01T20:40:07 Kfranco (talk | contribs) (3,069 bytes) (Changed picture to retouched version, changed link for no parking sign, slight edit for photo caption, completed other edits in body of text for readability, etc.) (undo)
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(cur | prev) 2009-06-04T00:27:28 Juliancolton (talk | contribs) (2,914 bytes) (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Don't even think about it! closed as no consensus) (undo)
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(cur | prev) 2009-05-31T09:00:47 Colonel Warden (talk | contribs) (3,289 bytes) (more on parking) (undo)
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(cur | prev) 2009-05-27T20:49:21 Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk | contribs) (3,346 bytes) (In 2004 it was the title of a book by Lauren Henderson.{{cite book |last= |first= |authorlink= |coauthors= |title=Don't Even Think About It |year=2004 |publisher=Downtown Press |quote= | url= |is) (undo)
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Talk:Don't even think about it!

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Articles for deletion This page was nominated for deletion on 3 June 2009 (UTC). The result of the discussion was no consensus.

a spoiler alert for a tv commercial? what next? Kingturtle 22:51 May 13, 2003 (UTC)

Doesn't this fall under #5 of What Wikipedia is not? A slang and idiom guide? DanKeshet 04:07, Aug 23, 2003 (UTC)

No because the article is actually about the commercial, but I wrote the explanation of the phrase as a prefix so that non-Americans can understand why it was used in the commercial.

Antonio Bang Bang Baby Bang Bang! Martin

The article is no longer about the commercial. I don't think that anything referenced within, either a five-year old commercial or a reference within a television show, is particluarly notable. SixFourThree (talk) 14:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)SixFourThree

What about Where's the beef?? I think Don't even think about it! is up to the same snuff. Kingturtle (talk) 19:33, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Comparing the two articles, I don't agree. Maybe if somebody cuts a single about "Don't Even Think About It." SixFourThree (talk) 17:46, 16 May 2008 (UTC)SixFourThree

Problem is: the New York sign says: don't even think of... not about. Important for learners (but the sign is funny though).Klebbsen (talk) 19:43, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
[edit] Direction for Article?

I did some cleanup of the article today (my first good deed for the new year). I think the article might be more valuable for the traffic sign - I was looking at another Wikipedia article about road signs in the U.S. and the NYC parking restriction sign piqued my interest. Through some googling, I was led back to Wikipedia and this article.

My cleanup involved fixing the picture, giving the article a more formal tone, and adding some links which may be of more interest to someone seeking info on the sign. I also linked back to this article from the road signs article and another article, Parking violation. I'm unsure what to do at this point. Perhaps an article on the sign itself is warranted? It certainly is a strange and interesting one! Kfranco (talk) 22:35, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

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Association of Independent Baptist Churches of Illinois

2011-06-14T15:44:00.000+01:00

Association of Independent Baptist Churches of Illinois

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The Association of Independent Baptist Churches of Illinois is a voluntary fellowship of independent Baptist churches in the U. S. state of Illinois. Headquarters is located in Paxton, Illinois. The association was composed of about 75 churches in 1994. The Baptist Messenger is their official publication.
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Talk:Association of Independent Baptist Churches of Illinois

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Preacher's kid

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Preacher's kid

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For the movie starring LeToya Luckett and Durrell Babbs see Preacher's Kid (film).

Preacher's kid (abbreviated as PK) is a term to refer to a child of a preacher, pastor, deacon, vicar, minister or other similar church leader. Although the phrase can be used in a purely descriptive way, it is often used pejoratively or stereotypically. It is mainly used in the United States.

Some clergy live in social networks that impose uncodified and perhaps unconscious expectations about the conduct, not only of the clergy themselves, but also the members of their families.[1] Children of church leaders are often subjected to greater scrutiny by the community than other children. People around them, including their parents, often set higher moral and behavioral standards for these children. Due to the greater visibility of these children, their mistakes are magnified and given extra attention. In addition, these children often sense that they are treated differently from others and can react in various disruptive ways. The term also has connotations of itinerance, with the preacher's kid following their parent on the latter's postings to different congregations.[2] Finally, preachers' kids witness the day to day business of their religious congregations more intimately than the non-clergy members do, and become familiar with church administration and the social dimensions of dealing with the congregation at an early age. A large number of the children of Protestant and Jewish clergy go on to become members of the clergy themselves.[3]

Preacher's kid syndrome is a situation in which the parents of a preacher's kid are attuned to everyone's problems but those of the kid.[4]

Stereotypes

All of these factors lead to a preacher's kid stereotype. There are two general stereotypes of preachers' kids.

Stereotype one

Preachers' kids act as if they are "holier-than-thou." They preach their beliefs to anybody they encounter. They do not like to be wrong about what they preach, even in the opinions of others. They may be also prepotent, and in some cases, spoiled brats.

Stereotype two

Preachers' kids start out as good, faithful children, but anywhere from their preteen years to their adult life, they rebel. They do anything they can to avoid the church and its practices. They may deny their parents outright or they may be rebellious behind their parents' backs.[5][6]
Contents

1 Famous examples
2 References
3 Further reading
4 External links

[edit] 1 Famous examples

List of children of clergy

[edit] 2 References

^ Thomas W. Klink, "The Ministry as Career and Crisis", in Pastoral Psychology, v. 20 no. 6 pp. 13-19 (Springer: 1969)
^ DeLeon, David (1994). Leaders from the 1960s. Westport: Greenwood Press. ISBN 0313274142.
^ David Peterson, "Preachers' kids; The children of preachers saw life in their church or synagogue from the inside. Many rejected the preacher's life, but others were drawn to follow their father's footsteps." (Minneapolis Star Tribune, byline Oct. 11, 1997, accessed Nov. 21, 2008)
^ Coats, Karen (2007) . Bulletin of the Center for Children's Books [0008-9036], volume 60, p.332
^ "Rebel Graham Son Finds His Cause". Albuquerque Journal. May 4, 1998.
^ Maxwell, Bill (May 13, 2001). "A Preacher's Kid is exposed". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2008-11-20.

[edit] 3 Further reading

Amy L Woods (1995). Preacher's kid. Regent University, Virginia Beach, Va. 1995. OCLC 33477968
Everett, Liz (July 20, 2000). "Preacher's kids not any different". Amarillo Globe-News.
Keleigh Crigler Hadley (2009). Preacher's Kids.http://www.amazon.com/Preachers-Kids-Keleigh-Crigler-Hadley/dp/1449504418/ref=cm_lm_byauthor_prod_0_1

[edit] 4 External links

Douglas F. Campbell, The Clergy Family in Canada: Focus on Adult PK's, read at the annual meeting of the Association for the Sociology of Religion, Washington, D.C., August 18-20, 1995.[dead link]

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Talk:Preacher's kid

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Articles for deletion This page was nominated for deletion on 20 November 2008 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep.

For a December 2004 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Preacher's Kid

"PK" is a slang term used among Christians and heard by others. If they do not know what a PK is, it will not be found in the dictionary or in the encyclopedia.

There are terms such as "Xian" meaning Christian on this site. "PK" is another one of those slang terms that is used by sone and not everybody knows. Therefore, they may come here looking for a definition.

This is where I found "Xian."

KagomeShuko, can you sign (~~~~) your edits on talk pages, thanks Mike ~ mlk ✉♬ 06:51, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC) ~

Does anyone else it would be great if "Pastor's Kid" was a wikipedia category/list? Off the top of my head there's Condaleeza Rice, John Ashcroft, Britney Spears... and way more. -Genesis Winter
[edit] Article only portrays two stereotypes

This article only portrays two stereotypes, the "rebellious teen" and the "holier than thou". It doesn't really discuss the problems and resentments that can build up. The pressure on the kids to have exemplary behavior and not cause trouble for the father, combined with the father who is very busy, but seems to have unlimited time for everybody else but the family. This profession is a difficult one to balance the demands of the job and the family, the fathers often come home emotionally drained by continuous contact with people and their problems, to collapse at home, with the family feeling pressure not to add their own problems to the burdens already on the father. Perhaps a third stereotype that also has some truth would be the kids that feel pressure to always be perfect, friendly and happy, and that have learned to repress their own feelings and sense of abandonment.--Silverback 09:14, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

This third stereotype is probably the most widespread amongst the many PKs I grew up with. PKs that were all happy, friendly, polite, the perfect children as far as the outside world was concerned. Seeing how we grew up, and the many that have had unhappy lives makes you wonder just how many of those perfect children were deeply troubled underneath. Our feelings were not the important ones, PKs were there to serve the parish, trained not to mind when parents had no time for them. This sense of abandonment and of being unlovable as a result of not having attention lavished on one must surely have a big effect on adult relationships. The scars run deep, but one feels they must always be hidden. How many attract partners and then feel beholden to stay with them because of that sense of duty implanted as a child? Surely a fascinating subject for psychological studies.

Scrundle 11:29, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

New to editing on WikiPedia so if I screw up protocol or something, just let me know.

Silverback and Scrundle have it. As a PK myself, I can attest to this third stereotype... I was actually quite disappointed to see the phenomenon so poorly represented in this article. (I would love to edit it, but as I said, I'm a bit nervous about breaching WikiPedia protocol for editing, bibliography and so on.) We weren't an unhappy family as a whole, but there was a growing sense of resentment over things like, for example, never being able to go fishing with my dad because he was too busy with counseling appointments. As a family we were all involved in the ministry, so it wasn't like Dad was the only one engaged in things, but it all left very little time for us to be family and do crazy things like take vacations.

There's more to the story than just 3 stereotypes, though. Scrundle hit on part of it. Having been indoctrinated to be both of service to a community and to keep our issues on the down-low, we often end up in relationships that aren't ideal and have issues getting out of them. Communication issues abound due to the "seen and not heard" aspect of our childhoods. Many of us will work to exhaustion to "fix" these relationships (and even partners), mirroring our parents' role as marriage and family counsellors. Anecdotally, we have a predisposition to codependence due to our need to be loved and willingness to kill ourselves to maintain a relationship.

The problem is that I don't know of any works that express these things, so the bibliography would be a bit short and I know that personal observations and experience aren't considered to meet the standards of WikiPedia.

--ArmchairDeity (talk) 15:48, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

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(cur | prev) 2011-06-11T15:48:06 ArmchairDeity (talk | contribs) (4,857 bytes) (adding to the discussion of the PK phenomenon) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-04-10T22:56:33 John Carter (talk | contribs) m (3,056 bytes) (Start class for Christianity) (undo)
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(cur | prev) 2006-03-29T09:15:20 Silverback (talk | contribs) (1,776 bytes) (→Article only portrays two stereotypes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-03-29T09:14:53 Silverback (talk | contribs) (1,766 bytes) (Article only portrays two stereotypes) (undo)
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Preacher's kid

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 138.37.7.247 (talk) at 2009-10-22T13:30:27. It may differ significantly from the current revision.
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For the movie starring LeToya Luckett and Durrell Babbs see Preacher's Kid (film).

Preacher's kid (abbreviated as PK) is a term to refer to a child of a preacher, pastor, deacon, vicar, minister or other similar church leader. Although the phrase can be used in a purely descriptive way, it is often used pejoratively or stereotypically. It is mainly used in the United States.

Some clergy live in social networks that impose uncodified and perhaps unconscious expectations about the conduct, not only of the clergy themselves, but also the members of their families.[1] Children of church leaders are often subjected to greater scrutiny by the community than other children. People around them, including their parents, often set higher moral and behavioral standards for these children. Due to the greater visibility of these children, their mistakes are magnified and given extra attention. In addition, these children often sense that they are treated differently from others and can react in various disruptive ways. The term also has connotations of itinerance, with the preacher's kid following their parent on the latter's postings to different congregations.[2] Finally, preachers' kids witness the day to day business of their religious congregations more intimately than the non-clergy members do, and become familiar with church administration and the social dimensions of dealing with the congregation at an early age. A large number of the children of Protestant and Jewish clergy go on to become members of the clergy themselves.[3]

Preacher's kid syndrome is a situation in which the parents of a preacher's kid are attuned to everyone's problems but those of the kid.[4]
Contents

1 Stereotypes
2 Famous examples
3 See also
4 References
5 Further reading
6 External links

1 Stereotypes

All of these factors lead to a preacher's kid stereotype. There are two general stereotypes of preachers' kids.

Stereotype one

Preachers' kids act as if they are "holier-than-thou." They preach their beliefs to anybody they encounter. They do not like to be wrong about what they preach, even in the opinions of others. They may be also prepotent, and in some cases, spoiled brats.

Stereotype two

Preachers' kids start out as good, faithful children, but anywhere from their preteen years to their adult life, they rebel. They do anything they can to avoid the church and its practices. They may deny their parents outright or they may be rebellious behind their parents' backs.[5][6]
2 Famous examples

Tori Amos
Ingmar Bergman
Nat King Cole
Alice Cooper
Gudrun Ensslin
Aretha Franklin
Mark Few
Marvin Gaye
Phil Jackson (both parents)
Carl Jung
Art Linkletter[7]
Charlie Manuel
George McGovern
Friedrich Nietzsche
Katy Perry
Condoleezza Rice
Jessica Simpson
Harriet Beecher Stowe
David Tennant
Nicola Tesla
Vincent Van Gogh
Denzel Washington
The Wright Brothers
Malcolm X
Jonas Brothers
Elijah Muhammad
Gordon Brown

3 See also

List of children of clergy

4 References

^ Thomas W. Klink, "The Ministry as Career and Crisis", in Pastoral Psychology, v. 20 no. 6, pp. 13-19 (Springer: 1969)
^ DeLeon, David (1994). Leaders from the 1960s. Westport: Greenwood Press. ISBN 0313274142.
^ David Peterson, "Preachers' kids; The children of preachers saw life in their church or synagogue from the inside. Many rejected the preacher's life, but others were drawn to follow their father's footsteps." (Minneapolis Star Tribune, byline Oct. 11, 1997, accessed Nov. 21, 2008)
^ Coats, Karen (2007) . Bulletin of the Center for Children's Books [0008-9036], volume 60, p.332
^ "Rebel Graham Son Finds His Cause". Albuquerque Journal. May 4, 1998.
^ Maxwell, Bill (May 13, 2001). "A Preacher's Kid is exposed". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2008-11-20.
^ Mann, Arnold (November 11, 2002). "Preacher's Kid". TIME. Retrieved 2008-11-20.

5 Further reading

Amy L Woods (1995). Preacher's kid. Regent University, Virginia Beach, Va. 1995. OCLC 33477968
Everett, Liz (July 20, 2000). "Preacher's kids not any different". Amarillo Globe-News.

6 External links

Douglas F. Campbell, The Clergy Family in Canada: Focus on Adult PK's, read at the annual meeting of the Association for the Sociology of Religion, Washington, D.C., August 18-20, 1995.[dead link]